Author Topic: Two more negate questions (Read 3034 times)

stefferweffer · « **on:** October 22, 2009, 08:01:53 PM »

1) I assume "negate the last enhancement" only means the special ability but no the numbers? I assume this because there are others that say "negate AND discard". The only thing that seems odd about this is that if negate means "interrupt and PREVENT", it seems to reason that it would go back in time and stop the card from being played at all.

2) My next question is a combination of a rules question and a "game play" question. Between friends this may not come up, but in a tournament I could see it causing a disagreement.

You make a battle challenge or rescue attempt with someone like Gabriel, who can search my deck. I have an evil character like King of Tyrus in hand that I intend to block with, who will negate the searching of my deck and removing a card from happening. Before you search why can't I just say I'm blocking with so and so (and place them into battle), thus no searching of my deck in necessarry? I know that you won't get a card regardless of if I let you search my deck first and THEN block, or you let me block beforehand, but it might be more than just losing a card. If this is near the start of the game, you may not know the strategy of my deck at all, and I frankly don't want you to even SEE the cards in my deck. And if negate means "interrupt and PREVENT", how can I prevent you from looking at my deck after you have already done so? In that case the damage has been done, even though I knew I would be blocking with an EC from hand that would negate the searching. Is anyone seeing my point here? Are there times where it is OK to negate the searching BEFORE it actually happens? By the way this can also save a lot of time. Please tell me the right way to play this.

Thanks.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2009, 08:29:15 PM »

You're going off an antiquated definition of Negate.

But even so, your example with Gabe is just how it works. He gets to Discard first, and then you may Negate. And you don't always know for sure you're going to be able to Negate. He could play AotL on your KoT in territory or use Mayhem to put a KoT in your hand back in your deck. Even if you are able to Negate it, the Gabe user still gets to see your deck.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2009, 09:24:16 PM »

"Negate last/an enhancement" negates both the SA and numbers. A card has to specify to just negate the SA (BTN enhancements, mostly) to leave the numbers.

Smokey · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2009, 09:25:37 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on October 22, 2009, 09:24:16 PM

"Negate last/an enhancement" negates both the SA and numbers. A card has to specify to just negate the SA (BTN enhancements, mostly) to leave the numbers.

You can't negate numbers

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2009, 09:30:22 PM »

You can if Aggie says so.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2009, 09:39:00 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on October 22, 2009, 09:25:37 PM

You can't negate numbers

Yes, you can. If you negate an Enhancement you negate the entire card, not just the special ablity.

Smokey · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2009, 09:47:20 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 22, 2009, 09:39:00 PM

Quote from: Smokey on October 22, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
You can't negate numbers

Yes, you can. If you negate an Enhancement you negate the entire card, not just the special ablity.

Since when, I've never heard this before...

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2009, 09:54:38 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on October 22, 2009, 09:47:20 PM

Since when, I've never heard this before...

It's been this way since before I started playing. My first couple of years I thought it worked the same as you. I had a big debate with some friends and then found out I was wrong.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2009, 11:15:58 PM »

That's amazing if that's true, and no one here knows that. Why then do some enhancements say "negate AND discard"? Why wouldn't you just discard something all the time if even the numbers were being negated?

As to the Gabriel against KOT thing, I guess Mayhem technically does make that possible now. But in my example KOT was in hand, so AOTL wouldn't have worked. I would never assume anything if KOT was in my territory. But it does seem unfair that an opponent can see your deck and then you negate it, but of course you can't erase what they just saw.

It's why I always found this statement in a trial hysterical - "The jury will disregard that last statement." Oh sure, I'm erasing it from my memory right now

Except in Redemption its "The opponent will now disregard the cards that it just saw in my deck."

Thanks for the help.

For the record, are we sure now that the OFFICIAL, CORRECT answer is that negate ALWAYS negates the numbers as well unless the card states otherwise? Furthermore, what's antiquated about my definition of negate? I thought that was right from the rule book. Don't tell me its more complicated now?!

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2009, 07:56:16 AM »

Yes, that is what happens with a negate card (unless it specifies just the special ability). If it is not discarded, you cannot use another enhancement that says to search your discard pile to search for that card. At least, that's may understanding of the difference between "negate" and "negate and discard".

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2009, 09:48:47 AM »

Negate and discard is newer language that makes it easier to understand what's happening. If you look at all the negates in Redemption you'll see that it's only in the last few sets that the playtesters have added the "and discard" part. I expect that any negate an Enhancement card printed in the future will all have that same verbage.

The REG is up at the moment so here's something that might help:

Quote from: REG

Effect
Some cards will refer to the effect of another card. The effect includes both the abilities (*/*) of the card and the special ability of the card. See Anatomy of a Card.

If we look at the wording used on Warriors era negates we see that they used the term effect to indicate that both the numbers and speciail ability are negated. This was before negate was well defined.

Five Smooth Stones
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: The effect of the last enhancement card played in current battle is interrupted and prevented.

Quote from: REG>Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last > Default Conditions

“Interrupt and prevent” are the same as negate.

When they reprinted Five Smooth Stones in Kings they updated the wording but it still does the exact same thing.

Five Smooth Stones
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate the last evil enhancement played in current battle.

If they were to print it again in the next set I expect it would say "Negate and discard the last evil enhancement played this battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2009, 10:33:13 AM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on October 22, 2009, 11:15:58 PM

But it does seem unfair that an opponent can see your deck and then you negate it, but of course you can't erase what they just saw.

Technically, a card such as False Wisdom (look at opponents hand) cant truely be negated after they've been played, since the only thing that happened was a player looked at something else. The only way to stop these cards is prevent them before they are even played. However, Gabe is definately negateable after he is played, since he looks and discards something. Abilities absolutely must complete once cards are played, and THEN if the opponent has initiative, they may negate. I know its annoying that they get to see your deck, but thats just how it works. If you want to stop that, may I suggest you put Hezekiah's Signet Ring or Confusion of Mind in your deck?

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #12 on:** November 03, 2009, 10:34:27 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 22, 2009, 09:54:38 PM

Quote from: Smokey on October 22, 2009, 09:47:20 PM
Since when, I've never heard this before...

It's been this way since before I started playing. My first couple of years I thought it worked the same as you. I had a big debate with some friends and then found out I was wrong.

So when you negate a card, you negate the sa and numbers? So it is like discarding it?

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2009, 12:00:17 AM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on November 03, 2009, 10:34:27 PM

So when you negate a card, you negate the sa and numbers? So it is like discarding it?

Not exactly. It only discards it if it says "negate and discard". The distinction is that you can't choose the negated and not discarded card as the target of an ability that lets you grab an enhancement from your discard pile.

mjwolfe · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2009, 02:06:42 AM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on November 03, 2009, 10:34:27 PM

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 22, 2009, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Smokey on October 22, 2009, 09:47:20 PM
Since when, I've never heard this before...

It's been this way since before I started playing. My first couple of years I thought it worked the same as you. I had a big debate with some friends and then found out I was wrong.

So when you negate a card, you negate the sa and numbers? So it is like discarding it?

Negate isn't actually the same as discarding it. The act of discarding will remove the card's abilities (numbers) from the battle by moving the card to the discard pile, but discarding will NOT stop a special ability that has already been played. Negating the enhancement stops the abilities and the special ability of the card but doesn't move it to the discard pile. Negating the special ability of an enhancement leaves the abilities active in the battle. That's why "Negate AND Discard" takes care of it completely.

Mike

stefferweffer · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2009, 07:40:59 AM »

"Negating the special ability and the abilities..."? Do you mean the special ability and the numbers? If so, then I think it has been ruled that "negate an enhancement" negates the numbers on that card too.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #16 on:** November 04, 2009, 08:36:07 AM »

Quote from: mjwolfe on November 04, 2009, 02:06:42 AM

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on November 03, 2009, 10:34:27 PM
Quote from: BrianGabe on October 22, 2009, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Smokey on October 22, 2009, 09:47:20 PM
Since when, I've never heard this before...

It's been this way since before I started playing. My first couple of years I thought it worked the same as you. I had a big debate with some friends and then found out I was wrong.

So basically negate sa negates the sa and the numbers on the cards don't matter but doesn't get discarded for recursion reasons...?

So when you negate a card, you negate the sa and numbers? So it is like discarding it?
Negate isn't actually the same as discarding it. The act of discarding will remove the card's abilities (numbers) from the battle by moving the card to the discard pile, but discarding will NOT stop a special ability that has already been played. Negating the enhancement stops the abilities and the special ability of the card but doesn't move it to the discard pile. Negating the special ability of an enhancement leaves the abilities active in the battle. That's why "Negate AND Discard" takes care of it completely.

Mike

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2009, 09:43:19 AM »

Negate SA = special ability canceled, #s still count, card stays
Negate = special ability canceled, #s canceled, card stays
Negate & discard = special ability canceled, #s canceled, card discarded
Discard = special ability stays, #s canceled, card discarded

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2009, 07:12:53 PM »

ok thanks. That helped a lot. I was real confused. xp

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Author Topic: Two more negate questions (Read 3034 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod