Author Topic: Two Bears question (Read 4300 times)

Red Wing · « **on:** January 04, 2012, 07:48:24 PM »

Can Two Bears shuffle Unknown Nation as a curse?

Two Bears (RA)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into deck. • Play As: If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle [return] them into deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: II Kings 2:24 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)

Unknown Nation (Pi)

Type: Curse • Brigade: Gold • Ability: 0 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: If opponent’s Hero is in battle, you may discard this card to search draw pile for a human Evil Character and add it to battle. Cannot be interrupted. • Play As: If opponent’s Hero is in battle, when holder chooses, you may discard this card to search deck for a human Evil Character and add to battle. Cannot be interrupted. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts an Idol • Verse: Deuteronomy 28:36 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Uncommon)

browarod · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2012, 07:57:02 PM »

I've been told that curses count for Two Bears, though I'm not entirely sure why.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2012, 07:59:56 PM »

Yes. Curses retain their brigade when activated as an artifact.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:27:50 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 04, 2012, 07:57:02 PM

I've been told that curses count for Two Bears, though I'm not entirely sure why.

Covenants and Curses don't work the same way Good/Evil Enhancements do. When played as an enhancement, a curse is considered to be both a curse and an enhancement. Likewise, when played as an artifact, a curse can be targeted as an artifact or as a curse (which retains the brigade color).

browarod · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2012, 09:59:15 PM »

I ask for clarification because of this quote from the REG:

Quote from: REG -> Definitions -> Curses

If you want to use it as an artifact, disregard the skull icon and play the card as you would any other artifact.

If I'm disregarding the skull icon, does that not include the brigade associated with said skull icon?

STAMP · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2012, 10:49:46 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 04, 2012, 09:59:15 PM

I ask for clarification because of this quote from the REG:
Quote from: REG -> Definitions -> Curses
If you want to use it as an artifact, disregard the skull icon and play the card as you would any other artifact.
If I'm disregarding the skull icon, does that not include the brigade associated with said skull icon?

Nope.

browarod · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2012, 10:55:00 PM »

So it's just an ambiguous brigade hanging out in the middle of nowhere, not related to anything but still somehow there? Do you have proof to back this up?

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:00:19 PM »

I never read the little card inserts but I imagine it may be on one of those.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2012, 12:36:42 AM »

Quote from: browarod on January 04, 2012, 10:55:00 PM

So it's just an ambiguous brigade hanging out in the middle of nowhere, not related to anything but still somehow there? Do you have proof to back this up?

Pithom works.

Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time an opponent plays a Dominant, if you have an Egyptian in play, discard the top card of his deck or place a good card in his territory beneath deck. • Identifiers: Holds 1 Gold curse (however this is not found in the reg for some reason, though it is on the actual card) • Verse: Exodus 1:11 •

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:20:48 PM »

Need I point out Split Altar that just because a card should work it doesn't necessarily mean it will? I just see nothing in the REG or rulebook that says curses keep brigades. The only evidence that covs/curses keep brigades as artifacts are the 2 (that I could think of) cards that specifically refer to them by brigade.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:25:19 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 05, 2012, 04:20:48 PM

Need I point out Split Altar that just because a card should work it doesn't necessarily mean it will? I just see nothing in the REG or rulebook that says curses keep brigades. The only evidence that covs/curses keep brigades as artifacts are the 2 (that I could think of) cards that specifically refer to them by brigade.

We have two cases of precedent, and nothing saying otherwise. I'd rule that curses keep brigade.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:27:14 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 05, 2012, 04:20:48 PM

Need I point out Split Altar that just because a card should work it doesn't necessarily mean it will?

No, you don't need to, because this is an entirely different scenario. Split Altar doesn't work because of faulty wording on the card. Pithom specifically acknowledges that Curses keep brigades. Just because the REG or Rulebook doesn't specifically acknowledge this doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, though it would be nice to see it updated to include this.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:34:53 PM »

Incidentally, Cov's have brigade too:
Name
Renewing the Covenant
Strength / Toughness
4/3
Type
Brigade
Special Ability
Search deck or discard pile for a Covenant matching the brigade of a Hero in play. Add it to hand or battle, regardless of brigade.

Cov's can be targeted by brigade, and since they don't lose their Cov status when activated as an artifact, I would say they can be targeted by brigade there too.

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:50:04 PM »

I'm not saying that this is not the status quo, I'm merely pointing out that the REG/rulebook don't support the way it's being played, ruled, and assumed when creating cards.

TimMierz · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2012, 07:12:54 PM »

REG Glossary entry for "Treat As":

When a card is treated as a different type of card, game rules and special abilities that affect either its natural card type or the card type that it is being treated as can affect it. For example, once a game rule is performed on the Covenant or Curse that is a Artifact- or Enhancement-specific (i.e., putting it in the Artifact pile or playing it on a character in battle) it becomes "treated as" an artifact or enhancement (whichever one the game rule was unique to). So after a covenant or curse is played in battle it can be targeted by a special ability that targets enhancements and after a covenant or curse is placed into an artifact pile it can be targeted by a special ability that targets artifacts.

Curses themselves have brigades, and so even if it's being treated as an artifact, the bolded section above shows that it can still be targeted as a curse and therefore having a brigade. This confirms what Kittens, Apathy, and Stamp have said.

Red Wing · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2012, 02:42:33 PM »

Then we played it right. Thanks!

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:01:55 PM »

I'm not denying that curses are still curses regardless of how they're used.

Quote from: TimMierz on January 05, 2012, 07:12:54 PM

Curses themselves have brigades

Do you have a REG or rulebook quote that says this? Nothing I've found says anything about brigades other than when it's used as an enhancement.

TimMierz · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:11:13 PM »

Well, for one, every REG entry for a Curse states a brigade. For instance, Given Over to Egypt starts, "Type: Curse • Brigade: Gold".

In the rulebook's "Anatomy of a Card" it points to the icon box with the label, "Card icon and brigade color". Nothing suggests that some cards don't have brigades.

browarod · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »

Artifacts don't have brigades, fortresses don't either, neither do lost souls (they don't even have an icon). Curses have brigades as enhancements for sure, I'm not arguing that. I just see nothing in the rules that says they have those brigades any other time.

TimMierz · « **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:52:23 PM »

Fortresses and Artifacts and Lost Souls also say they have no brigade in their REG entries, unlike Curses.

I don't know what more I can do for you. Multiple cards referencing covenants' and curses' brigades, brigades listed in their REG entries, I don't know what more to say. I feel it'd be about as hard to prove that Sites or Enhancements have brigades. Because hey, the Brigade entry in the REG says, "The Heroes and Evil Characters are subdivided into brigades" without mentioning other card types! That means even though countless cards may talk about "blue brigade enhancements", they must just be errors like Split Altar and there are no such things!

browarod · « **Reply #20 on:** January 06, 2012, 04:21:02 PM »

I don't appreciate the tone I got from your latest post, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since this is the internet and text-based conversations are terrible at passing meaning.

Quote from: TimMierz on January 06, 2012, 03:52:23 PM

Fortresses and Artifacts and Lost Souls also say they have no brigade in their REG entries, unlike Curses.

Except that since Curses/Covs definitely do have brigades when used as enhancements your comparison doesn't apply. Forts/Arts/Souls never have brigades, so it makes sense that they don't list them. Since Curses/Covs do have brigades at least some of the time, it also makes sense that the REG entries would list them so that people know what their enhancement brigade is.

All I'm trying to say is that if we're treating curses/covs as always having brigades, it would be nice if somewhere it said such rather than just having to assume it. I never claimed that they don't, I've only ever been saying that the rules don't say that they do.

STAMP · « **Reply #21 on:** January 06, 2012, 04:59:06 PM »

Anyone have a scan of the Curse insert from Priests? Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler??

Seriously, I don't know if the answer to browarod's question is there, but if we can scan over 2000 card images to put in the REG I would think it would be a very good idea to add images of the inserts.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #22 on:** January 06, 2012, 05:22:11 PM »

Quote

A Curse card has a serpet and a skull in the icon box. A Curse may be used either as an artifact or as an enhancement. When you play a Curse, you decide how to use it. If you want to use it as an artifact, disregard the skull icon and play the card as you would any other artifact. If you want to use it as an enhancement, disregard the serpent icon and play the card as an evil enhancement.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #23 on:** January 06, 2012, 05:28:31 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 06, 2012, 04:21:02 PM

I don't appreciate the tone I got from your latest post, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since this is the internet and text-based conversations are terrible at passing meaning.

Quote from: TimMierz on January 06, 2012, 03:52:23 PM
Fortresses and Artifacts and Lost Souls also say they have no brigade in their REG entries, unlike Curses.
Except that since Curses/Covs definitely do have brigades when used as enhancements your comparison doesn't apply. Forts/Arts/Souls never have brigades, so it makes sense that they don't list them. Since Curses/Covs do have brigades at least some of the time, it also makes sense that the REG entries would list them so that people know what their enhancement brigade is.

All I'm trying to say is that if we're treating curses/covs as always having brigades, it would be nice if somewhere it said such rather than just having to assume it. I never claimed that they don't, I've only ever been saying that the rules don't say that they do.

It actually does if you read into the previously quoted section by Tim. - Curses/Cov's always have a brigade because Curses/Cov's are always Curses/Cov's, regardless of how they're being used. Unless you're trying to argue that Curses and Cov's at face value don't have a brigade

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2012, 05:42:48 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 06, 2012, 05:28:31 PM

Unless you're trying to argue that Curses and Cov's at face value don't have a brigade

Well, you wouldn't know whether or not they do based on the rules, lol. I know everyone assumes they do, but other than Renewing the Covenant there's nothing in the rulebook about them having them.

Now, this could all be explained by that little insert in Priests packs (I certainly haven't actually read that thing in quite some time), but it does strike me as odd that the online rulebook and REG are silent about this.

News:

Author Topic: Two Bears question (Read 4300 times)

browarod

Chronic Apathy

browarod

browarod

TheHobbit13

browarod

Chronic Apathy

browarod

browarod

browarod

browarod

browarod