Author Topic: Good vs. Neutral (Read 2750 times)

Bobbert · « **on:** May 27, 2012, 06:43:21 PM »

I recently had it ruled that Siegeworks was a neutral card while in deck, so Astrologers could not take it out and make an opponent discard a card.

Does this apply to discard as well? Does this mean that Isaiah cannot search out Siegeworks or Razor (Or Zeke, with Forest Fire and Drawn Sword) out of discard pile? If that's true, I've been playing it wrong all year.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2012, 07:25:32 PM »

i was told when i searched that they counted as both so you couldnt search for them in your deck, like with neb. but im not sure if astrologers brought it out what it would count as.

Nameless · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2012, 08:08:37 PM »

In T2 they count as neutral, but in T1 I have always played them as both.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2012, 08:42:53 PM »

Quote from: Nameless on May 27, 2012, 08:08:37 PM

In T2 they count as neutral, but in T1 I have always played them as both.

I am not sure the first part of this is correct. In T2 these cards count as both good + evil, which (for deck building purposes) is effectively neutral.

Bobbert · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2012, 09:49:26 PM »

Quote from: Nameless on May 27, 2012, 08:08:37 PM

In T2 they count as neutral, but in T1 I have always played them as both.

This is how I always played it as well, but I was told at a district tournament by Pat Wester that they were neutral (in T1). Hoping this still works, since insta-recurring CBN battlewinners is half the point of a Isaiah deck.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2012, 09:55:07 PM »

Quote from: Thomas Hunter on May 27, 2012, 09:49:26 PM

Quote from: Nameless on May 27, 2012, 08:08:37 PM
In T2 they count as neutral, but in T1 I have always played them as both.

This is how I always played it as well, but I was told at a district tournament by Pat Wester that they were neutral (in T1). Hoping this still works, since insta-recurring CBN battlewinners is half the point of a Isaiah deck.

Whoops. I'm pretty sure MJB is correct.

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:08:49 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on May 27, 2012, 08:42:53 PM

Quote from: Nameless on May 27, 2012, 08:08:37 PM
In T2 they count as neutral, but in T1 I have always played them as both.
I am not sure the first part of this is correct. In T2 these cards count as both good + evil, which (for deck building purposes) is effectively neutral.

You are correct that, for deck-building purposes in T2, these cards count essentially as "neutral", being both good and evil. However:

Quote from: Prof Underwood on September 20, 2011, 11:56:23 AM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on September 20, 2011, 11:53:22 AM
Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:35:48 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 27, 2012, 10:08:49 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on May 27, 2012, 08:42:53 PM
Quote from: Nameless on May 27, 2012, 08:08:37 PM
In T2 they count as neutral, but in T1 I have always played them as both.
I am not sure the first part of this is correct. In T2 these cards count as both good + evil, which (for deck building purposes) is effectively neutral.

You are correct that, for deck-building purposes in T2, these cards count essentially as "neutral", being both good and evil. However:

Quote from: Prof Underwood on September 20, 2011, 11:56:23 AM
Quote from: Prof Underwood on September 20, 2011, 11:53:22 AM
Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

Right, as I said "In T2 these cards count as both good + evil," which is equivalent to Prof Underwood's statement that these cards are "both good and evil while not on the table." Thanks for pulling this out, Redoubter, because it does answer Thomas Hunter's original question. If the DAE are both good and evil in the deck, then a card that allows you to search for a good enhancement can bring out Siegeworks.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #8 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:43:10 PM »

with Redoubter

This is the whole point in having Ezekiel and the Babs play together.

Ra or block and drop forest fire/drawn. Sword on your opponents face. Then later Ra with Zek and place it Beneth deck followed by a block by Astrologers to recur it to hand.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 27, 2012, 11:17:26 PM »

hmm good point

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2012, 11:21:32 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on May 27, 2012, 10:35:48 PM

Thanks for pulling this out, Redoubter, because it does answer Thomas Hunter's original question.

I had to use my mad google-fu powers to find it. I really wish someone would be able to figure out why searching is still broken, because questions like this could be solved a lot more quickly

Praeceps · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2012, 09:23:58 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on May 27, 2012, 10:43:10 PM

with Redoubter

This is the whole point in having Ezekiel and the Babs play together.

Ra or block and drop forest fire/drawn. Sword on your opponents face. Then later Ra with Zek and place it Beneth deck followed by a block by Astrologers to recur it to hand.

This wouldn't work unless FF/DS was never played. For Zeke to bottom deck the enhancement, it would have to be a GE, ie played on a Hero or not played at all. For astrologers to send it to hand, it would have to be an EE, ie played on an EC or not at all. Once a DAE is played it retains its GE/EE status no matter how many piles it travels through, it will never reset.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #12 on:** May 29, 2012, 09:34:55 PM »

The only thing in the game that dosen't reset is a "once per game" the enhancements will and do reset once hitting any pile. It is wile they are in play that they retain their good/evil status.

Drrek · « **Reply #13 on:** May 29, 2012, 09:37:51 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 29, 2012, 09:23:58 PM

Quote from: Jmbeers on May 27, 2012, 10:43:10 PM
with Redoubter

This is the whole point in having Ezekiel and the Babs play together.

Ra or block and drop forest fire/drawn. Sword on your opponents face. Then later Ra with Zek and place it Beneth deck followed by a block by Astrologers to recur it to hand.

This wouldn't work unless FF/DS was never played. For Zeke to bottom deck the enhancement, it would have to be a GE, ie played on a Hero or not played at all. For astrologers to send it to hand, it would have to be an EE, ie played on an EC or not at all. Once a DAE is played it retains its GE/EE status no matter how many piles it travels through, it will never reset.

This is blatantly wrong, it DOES reset when it hits deck.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** May 29, 2012, 09:43:19 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on May 29, 2012, 09:37:51 PM

This is blatantly wrong, it DOES reset when it hits deck.

This is correct. All cards reset completely when they hit hand, deck, or discard. Even "X per game" abilities are not counted by the card, they are by definition counted 'by the game' per their definition, so there is no discrepancy.

They just reset. Period.

Praeceps · « **Reply #15 on:** May 30, 2012, 10:45:35 PM »

We've said this before and we'll say it again, this is the ruling from the Offical Rulings Thread:

Quote

Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** May 30, 2012, 11:01:06 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 30, 2012, 10:45:35 PM

We've said this before and we'll say it again, this is the ruling from the Offical Rulings Thread:

Quote
Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

They reset in deck though, as they are no longer on the table.

megamanlan · « **Reply #17 on:** May 31, 2012, 03:35:44 PM »

Yes, when they leave play, they reset. But when they are in Deck or Discard Pile, they are both Good and Evil. Whoever made that ruling was wrong.

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 30, 2012, 10:45:35 PM

We've said this before and we'll say it again, this is the ruling from the Offical Rulings Thread:

Quote
Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

As the others pointed out, cards reset once they hit deck. There is both precedent for this and elder rulings to support the concept for DAE as well.

Do cards that have increases/decreases in abilities keep those when... Do cards that have a use limit (like Promised Land) that is not limited 'per game' keep track of uses already done when... Do converted characters stay converted when... Do curses or covenants played as such or as enhancements keep that state when...

...returned to hand, deck, or discard? The answer to all of these is "No", and the same applies to DAE. They reset their state when they enter those locations. They only keep their state while in play, like all other similar situations.

Korunks · « **Reply #19 on:** June 01, 2012, 01:08:34 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 30, 2012, 10:45:35 PM

We've said this before and we'll say it again, this is the ruling from the Offical Rulings Thread:

Quote
Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

That statement is completely correct, but only while the enhancement is in play. Once it leaves play it resets to its face value of both Good and Evil. The ruling in the Official Rulings thread does not specify that it overrides the default game rule that cards reset in Deck. Underwood or another elder could come by this thread and verify, but FWIW I have never seen it ruled otherwise.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #20 on:** June 01, 2012, 02:33:10 PM »

Korunks is correct.

Korunks · « **Reply #21 on:** June 01, 2012, 04:24:10 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 01, 2012, 02:33:10 PM

Korunks is correct.

Somebody sticky that, it never happens!

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Author Topic: Good vs. Neutral (Read 2750 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk