Author Topic: Two Bears + Hating the Light (Read 2925 times)

Spud · « **on:** July 14, 2011, 10:47:30 AM »

Two Bears (RA)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into deck. • Play As: If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle [return] them into deck.

Hating the Light (Di)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on your human Evil Character: This Evil Character cannot be ignored and is protected from capture, conversion, and shuffle. • Play As: Place on your human Evil Character: This Evil Character cannot be ignored. Protect this Evil Character from capture, conversion, and shuffle.

1. Basically, can the user of Two Bears intentionally "select" an evil character holding Hating the Light?

2. Also, can a character with multiple brigades (Damsel with Spirit of Divination, Astrologers, Chaldeans P) be selected multiple times by Two Bears?

browarod · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2011, 10:51:24 AM »

1. Protect limits targets, so you cannot target the bearer of Hating the Light with Two Bears. You can, however (and would probably have to), target Hating the Light itself (unless there's a card of every evil brigade elsewhere in play).

2. I believe you can select the same character twice if you want to (or have to if there are no others of that brigade), but it obviously only gets shuffled once.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:02:06 AM »

1) I know for a fact you can shuffle immune characters with Two Bears because it interrupts first, and Hating the Light is not CBI. So yes, I see no reason why you can't shuffle in the EC.

2) I do not believe you can target a character twice with this ability. However, if there are 10 orange cards out, and one evil multicolor, you could target the multicolor as an Orange and leave the rest alone.

Spud · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:11:37 AM »

The main reason for the "target twice" question was for this type of scenario:

I have Astrologers (Pale Green/Crimson), Enchanter (Pale Green), and Seven Sons of Sceva (Crimson) in play. I play Two Bears during my rescue attempt. Can I shuffle Astrologers to satisfy the "one of each brigade" requirement and keep Enchanter and Seven Sons of Sceva?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:12:39 AM »

No, you would have to shuffle two cards in that case. You can also shuffle enhancements and curses as a brigade as well.

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:18:07 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on July 14, 2011, 11:02:06 AM

1) I know for a fact you can shuffle immune characters with Two Bears because it interrupts first, and Hating the Light is not CBI. So yes, I see no reason why you can't shuffle in the EC.

If Hating the Light is on the EC in battle, I would agree with you, however "interrupt the battle" doesn't interrupt ongoing abilities not in battle, so an evil character in territory with HtL would not be able to be shuffled with Two Bears because TB wouldn't be interrupting the protection.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:21:38 AM »

He never specified if it was in territory or battle.

Also, from the REG:

‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements, abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal, as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent. Interrupting the battle interrupts the battle flow at the point where you played the interrupt. It does not send you back to the beginning of the battle and does not include special abilities completed prior to the interrupt being played that are no longer pending.

Where does it specify "in battle" for the first bit?

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:35:30 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on July 14, 2011, 11:21:38 AM

He never specified if it was in territory or battle.

Also, from the REG:

‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements, abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal, as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent. Interrupting the battle interrupts the battle flow at the point where you played the interrupt. It does not send you back to the beginning of the battle and does not include special abilities completed prior to the interrupt being played that are no longer pending.

Where does it specify "in battle" for the first bit?

No he didn't, but the answer needs a specification.

I could be wrong, but last I heard what I said was right.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #8 on:** July 14, 2011, 01:12:33 PM »

Interrupt the Battle specifies battle in the ability name itself. It's interrupt the battle, not interrupt the game.

Also, Hating The Light could only be interrupted if it was played during battle. If it was played during a previous phase/turn, then it is CBN, just like Artifact actions and gained abilities.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 14, 2011, 01:15:03 PM »

It would still be written in the REG if that were the case.

Also, I thought only the act of placing became CBN, not the ability itself.

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2011, 01:18:01 PM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on July 14, 2011, 01:12:33 PM

Interrupt the Battle specifies battle in the ability name itself. It's interrupt the battle, not interrupt the game.

Also, Hating The Light could only be interrupted if it was played during battle. If it was played during a previous phase/turn, then it is CBN, just like Artifact actions and gained abilities.

This seems to be a popular misnomer. The placement of a placed card is CBN after the phase in which it is placed (so you don't have the card being "unplaced" completely simply because it was negated), but the ongoing ability is CBN only if itself is CBN.

If Covenant with Noah was used to negate Abom, then for one phase you could use draw abilities without your opponent making a discard (Mayhem, Gifts of the Magi, etc), but you can't negate the "Place in opponent's territory..." part of Abom, so it stays in territory.

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** July 14, 2011, 01:19:53 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on July 14, 2011, 01:15:03 PM

It would still be written in the REG if that were the case.

Also, I thought only the act of placing became CBN, not the ability itself.

Maybe the hinted at new REG, you of all people should know how flawed the current one is, lol.

You are correct, the placing is CBN but the ability can still be interrupted/negated (by cards that can target them). *instaposted by jmhartz*

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2011, 01:22:03 PM »

Quote from: browarod on July 14, 2011, 01:19:53 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on July 14, 2011, 01:15:03 PM
It would still be written in the REG if that were the case.

Also, I thought only the act of placing became CBN, not the ability itself.
Maybe the hinted at new REG, you of all people should know how flawed the current one is, lol.

You are correct, the placing is CBN but the ability can still be interrupted/negated (by cards that can target them). *instaposted by jmhartz*

Flawed as the current REG may be, I still agree with this one. Ongoing cards in territory can have an impact on the battle. See Wolves in Sheeps Clothing or Abom for example.

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** July 14, 2011, 01:33:59 PM »

I never said they couldn't have an impact on the battle (cuz they totally can), I just said that from what I've been told "interrupt the battle" doesn't interrupt ongoing abilities not in battle. Again, I could be wrong.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2011, 01:02:17 AM »

I agree. ITB says "Battle." Not "everything." It's only when a card doesn't specify target that it defaults to in play (FBTN would stop HTL or Abom. *I think*)

Korunks · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2011, 08:46:11 AM »

There was a discussion about the "Scope" of ITB here a while ago. The thread is here.
We really need to have the sections on ITB in the REG updated. The section I quoted months ago is still in error.
Follow this link to see what I mean.

But basically ITB is only scoped to the battle and nothing outside of it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2011, 09:55:40 AM »

That discussion never really finished, but that is the exact same issue we're discussing here.

So.... can we try to get this ironed out now? A litteral reading of the REG would imply I can interrupt ongoing characters and enhancements that are sitting in a territory.

STAMP · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2011, 02:04:48 PM »

Lambo is correct.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:40:03 PM »

Based on an outdated and incorrect portion of the REG, you'd be correct.

This has been brought up quite a few times, and even though I don't think we ever got an ironclad ruling, every time the majority of players and elders have been on the side of having ITB interrupt, well, the battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:44:40 PM »

So... if a player has Herod's Treachery in their territory, and uses it to kick a hero out of battle, I cant play an ITB card to stop it?

Quote

‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements, abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal, as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent.

If a card located outside of battle is causing me to lose by removal... why cant i interrupt it? It has a very active part in the current battle.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:51:42 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on July 15, 2011, 06:44:40 PM

So... if a player has Herod's Treachery in their territory, and uses it to kick a hero out of battle, I cant play an ITB card to stop it?

ITB only interrupts cards in the battle. It does not interrupt Hating the Light or Herod's Treachery if they are in territory. This isn't even being discussed by the elders because we were all in agreement on the other thread.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on July 15, 2011, 06:44:40 PM

If a card located outside of battle is causing me to lose by removal... why cant i interrupt it? It has a very active part in the current battle.

You can interrupt/negate it if you have a card that specifically targets it. ITB does not.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 15, 2011, 07:31:51 PM »

Well then, can we modify the REG entries slightly to make this completely clear?

Under How to Use:

‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all of the following within the field of battle:...

Under Glossary:

Interrupt the Battle
Interrupt the battle interrupts the following abilities in the field of battle:...

Add those two little snippets, and this type of argument would never pop up again.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #22 on:** July 15, 2011, 07:34:03 PM »

Not field of battle, battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #23 on:** July 15, 2011, 07:38:07 PM »

Just "battle" could be misinterpreted as "battle phase".

The card must PHYSICALLY be in the field of battle it seems, so make that crystal clear.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #24 on:** July 15, 2011, 07:52:17 PM »

I think he means that specific battle. So an ITB card played in a side battle wouldn't interrupt cards in the main battle. Not 100% on that, though.

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Author Topic: Two Bears + Hating the Light (Read 2925 times)

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

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