Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Alex_Olijar on February 05, 2009, 04:55:14 PM
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Sorry for no "real" abilities here.
If I make a RA or BC with The Strong Angel (WC), ability= Fight by the numbers, except Warrior Class, with a Two-Thousand Horses, ability=Interrupt the battle, draw two cards,play the next enhancement, can I:
1. Play a non-weapon class without it being negated?
2. If so, does TSA negate it when his abliity becomes uninterrupted?
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yes, and yes.
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I figured. Man. Unfortunate.
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Well, I agree on #1, but I'm not quite sure what happens for #2.
Negate = Interrupt and Prevent (I realize you know this, just working it out)
The interrupt part has finished its use at this point (at least for now)
Therefore, it's just "just" preventing.
Thus, TSA is preventing all non-WC.
2K Horses = interrupt & play
Interrupts TSA's prevent
Play non-WC card, not being prevented because TSA's ability is interrupted (1 = YES)
2K Horses' interrupt ends
TSA's prevent reactivates
Does interrupt reactivate?
Prevent only affects yet-to-be-played enhancements only, correct?
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+1 with sk
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Hey,
I didn't exactly follow sk's logic, but this would work the same way as Strong Angel blocked by The Rabshakeh with Two Thousand Horses. The enhancement after Two Thousand Horses would take effect with The Strong Angel interrupted, but unless that card removes The Strong Angel from battle, The Strong Angel would negate it as soon as The Strong Angel reactivates.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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TSA's prevent reactivates
Does interrupt reactivate?
Prevent only affects yet-to-be-played enhancements only, correct?
+1 w/ Tim.
By breaking it down it seems you've confused yourself. TSA's entire SA (not just the prevent part) is interrupted (stopped) by the enhancement. Once the interrupt completes, his entire SA (negate all) reinstates, which includes interrupting all abilities.
The enhancement you play is negated unless it somehow stops TSA's sa from reinstating.
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TSA's prevent reactivates
Does interrupt reactivate?
Prevent only affects yet-to-be-played enhancements only, correct?
+1 w/ Tim.
By breaking it down it seems you've confused yourself. TSA's entire SA (not just the prevent part) is interrupted (stopped) by the enhancement. Once the interrupt completes, his entire SA (negate all) reinstates, which includes interrupting all abilities.
The enhancement you play is negated unless it somehow stops TSA's sa from reinstating.
Interrupting the battle only interrupts the ongoing ability of TSA's SA.
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I wrote it out to question whether TSA's ability reactivates, and continues af not not interrupted (thus no longer interrupting), or if it completely reboots and both interrupts and prevents. What all has been interrupted, and how does it return?
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Interrupting the battle only interrupts the ongoing ability of TSA's SA.
Correct. Then when the interrupt from 2kHorses ends, TSA's negate all (but warriors/weapons) kicks back in, negating (interrupting and preventing) whatever was played with the 2kHorses.
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Interrupting the battle only interrupts the ongoing ability of TSA's SA.
Correct. Then when the interrupt from 2kHorses ends, TSA's negate all (but warriors/weapons) kicks back in, negating (interrupting and preventing) whatever was played with the 2kHorses.
'Interrupt' is not an ongoing ability. Only the 'Prevent' part of TSA's SA is ongoing.
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'Interrupt' is not an ongoing ability. Only the 'Prevent' part of TSA's SA is ongoing.
There aren't two separate abilities. It's one ability. Negate all.
Check the REG, negate all cards are listed under "Ongoing abilities".
The Strong Angel
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: All special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements are negated.
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'Interrupt' is not an ongoing ability. Only the 'Prevent' part of TSA's SA is ongoing.
There aren't two separate abilities. It's one ability. Negate all.
Check the REG, negate all cards are listed under "Ongoing abilities".
The Strong Angel
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: All special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements are negated.
Negate is interrupt+prevent. It's listed under ongoing because the prevent part is ongoing. Look under instant abilities to find interrupt. The wording for the warriors version is:
The Strong Angel
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: All special abilities on character cards and enhancement cards except this one are interrupted and prevented. Battle is determined by the numbers. • Identifiers: NT Male Angel • Verse: Revelation 5:2
Even though the wording is different, they do the same thing: interrupt all + prevent all.
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I agree with Stamp.
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"Negate All" is in the Ongoing Abilities section and says this:
These cards negate all special abilities of all cards currently in effect, except those that cannot be negated. It also prevents all special abilities on all cards that are played during the rest of the Battle Phase. The only exceptions are abilities (*/*), definitions of of a “*” in an icon box (see Variable Value (x/x)), or cards that cannot be negated (see Cannot be Negated).
The "Clarifications" section says the "Negate All" is the same as "Play by the Numbers."
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The problem here is that Interrupt, Prevent, and Negate has never been as neatly defined as they should be. The Angel Wars insert does a pretty good job of explaining how they work, but in circumstances like this it would be nice to have a stronger definition of "Negate" than we currently do.
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I guess the statement "These cards negate all special abilities of all cards currently in effect" needs to be made clear. Are enhancements that have already been played (with instant abilities) still "in effect?" The fact that you can Interrupt them would lead me to believe that they are.
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That depends on whether they are ongoing or instant abilities I believe.
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Prevent stops forward. Interrupt stops backward (typically only for a limited time). Negate stops in both directions. It's been defined that way for at least three years, and I would say all the way back to Angel Wars.
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Right, so if we're saying negate stops both ways then it is like an ongoing version of interrupt which is slightly different than interrupt+prevent. It is like "perpetual interrupt" + prevent.
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It is like "perpetual interrupt" ...
This sounds like my third period class... ::)
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So, if a negate all ability is interrupted, when it reactivates, does it interrupt again, or simply continue to prevent, like it would have done if it wasn't interrupted?
What if TSA (Ki) is blocked by a WC EC with 2KH, and the blocking player plays Angel Departed (Return a silver brigade hero in battle to owner's territory. Cannot be prevented)? Is Angel Departed interrupted, because 2KH's interrupt caused TSA's interrupt to reactivate? In that case, the best move would be to NOT use 2KH's interrupt function, and only the draw two/play next, which would cause Angel Departed to not be interrupted. To me, this seems like a very awkward situation.
If we do rule Negate All to be treated as a "perpetual interrupt", then the "cannot be prevented" cards that were intended to counter FBTN characters and enhancements will be useless.
Is "Negate All" ongoing, or is the "prevent all" part of the ability what is ongoing?
**edit** realized my hypothetical situation didn't work, because TSA can't interrupt when it's not in battle. Let's say we have a Gathered Michael banded to TSA (Ki), they are blocked by a Pale Green WC EC with 2KH, and the blocker plays Angel Departed, targeting Michael. Does TSA "reactivate," interrupting Angel Departed, or is the prevent the only thing that reactivates? **edit**
So basically:
Option 1: Negate All interrupts and prevents continually, rendering all cannot be prevented cards useless.
Option 2: Negate all interrupts when it activates upon entering battle, and then prevents from that point onward. When reactivating after being interrupted, only the prevent reactivates, and it continues as if it had not be interrupted.
Option 3: Negate all interrupts when it activates upon entering battle and after every time it is interrupted, even though interrupt is not an ongoing ability.
Option 1 doesn't really work with the cards that are available now. Option 3 doesn't make sense with the definitions that negate = interrupt + prevent, interrupt is instant, and prevent is ongoing. It could work if it was decided that negate all is treated slightly differently than just interrupt + prevent, or if it was ruled that all cards that were interrupted reactivate as if they were just played.
Option 2 seems the most logical to me, and requires no new rulings or errata.
/end wall of text
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The way this was explained to me was that originally we said that Interrupt + Prevent = Negate. There was no problem with that until we flipped the equation around to say Negate = Interrupt + Prevent.
I'm not really sure which of your options are correct Michael, since Option 2 would allow an enhancement that can be negated played under the "Interrupt Umbrella" of 2k Horses to be safe from TSA when he reactivates.
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The way this was explained to me was that originally we said that Interrupt + Prevent = Negate. There was no problem with that until we flipped the equation around to say Negate = Interrupt + Prevent.
I'm not really sure which of your options are correct Michael, since Option 2 would allow an enhancement that can be negated played under the "Interrupt Umbrella" of 2k Horses to be safe from TSA when he reactivates.
True, I hadn't thought of that...now I don't know what I think...I guess the question is whether you can interrupt an interrupt that already happened, or if Negate All is not as simply defined as "Interrupt and Prevent".
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Negate is not simply "interrupt and prevent". To interrupt and prevent causes the same result as to negate, but the converse does not hold.
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Negate is not simply "interrupt and prevent". To interrupt and prevent causes the same result as to negate, but the converse does not hold.
So, is "Negate all" an ongoing ability that reactivates and interrupts and prevents all active abilities when it is interrupted? How is negate different from interrupt and prevent?
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Negate is not simply "interrupt and prevent". To interrupt and prevent causes the same result as to negate, but the converse does not hold.
If this is true, then I will swear an oath to completely give up the game on Sunday, August 1, 2009.
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Since that's a Saturday, I guess you're not holding too tightly to that oath.
I remember reading a post by Tim Maly to the effect of what I wrote above.
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Since that's a Saturday, I guess you're not holding too tightly to that oath.
I remember reading a post by Tim Maly to the effect of what I wrote above.
I believe you, but I still don't know exactly what "negate all" is if it's not interrupt and prevent. I understand that it's treated differently, but how is it treated differently?
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It cancels everything before (unless it can't be interrupted/negated) and everything after (unless it can't be prevented/negating). It's ongoing. It eliminates the problem of "continual interrupt" and the "not negating from within the umbrella" stuff that was mentioned here, as far as I can tell.
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It cancels everything before (unless it can't be interrupted/negated) and everything after (unless it can't be prevented/negating). It's ongoing. It eliminates the problem of "continual interrupt" and the "not negating from within the umbrella" stuff that was mentioned here, as far as I can tell.
Ok, so in the Michael/TSA (Ki) situation, 2KH activates and interrupts TSA's ongoing negate all. Angel Departed is played, and if the blocking player chose to use 2KH's interrupt, TSA's ongoing negate reactivates and tries to negate everything again, negating Angel Departed (which can't be prevented, but can be interrupted then prevented). However, if the blocking player chooses not to use 2KH's interrupt, Angel Departed sticks, because TSA is only preventing it at this point.
Is it just me, or is that really weird?
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Here's my understanding as of now, very possibly wrong.
Stops "Cannot be Negated?" No
Stops "Cannot be Prevented?"
-If CbP is played first, Yes. If CbP is played Second, No.
Stops "Cannot be Interrupted?"
-If CbI is played first, No. If CbI is played Second, Yes.
So, negate all functions like an interrupt when played vs a "Cannot be Prevented" ability. It also functions like a prevent when played before a "Cannot be Interrupted" ability.
So when an ability like this is interrupted (2k Horses vs TSA), it reactivates. When it reactivates, the interrupt cannot choose any new targets, just like any other instant ability. But the prevent still prevents abilities happening in the future. So I believe the enhancement played under the 2K "Umbrella" isn't negated by TSA under these circumstances.
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Here's my understanding as of now, very possibly wrong.
Stops "Cannot be Negated?" No
Stops "Cannot be Prevented?"
-If CbP is played first, Yes. If CbP is played Second, No.
Stops "Cannot be Interrupted?"
-If CbI is played first, No. If CbI is played Second, Yes.
So, negate all functions like an interrupt when played vs a "Cannot be Prevented" ability. It also functions like a prevent when played before a "Cannot be Interrupted" ability.
So when an ability like this is interrupted (2k Horses vs TSA), it reactivates. When it reactivates, the interrupt cannot choose any new targets, just like any other instant ability. But the prevent still prevents abilities happening in the future. So I believe the enhancement played under the 2K "Umbrella" isn't negated by TSA under these circumstances.
So, you're saying that, as the interrupt is instant, it targets all cards currently in play when it activates the first time, but when it activates again, it does not select any new cards that were played since it was interrupted?
From what you're saying, it sounds like we don't even need to use a can't be prevented card, even something like Stocks would work, because Stocks would activate before TSA's prevent reactivated, therefore the prevent couldn't stop it and the interrupt wouldn't even try to target it, because it chose its targets (all characters and enhancements in play, non WC) at the time it was placed into battle.
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From what you're saying, it sounds like we don't even need to use a can't be prevented card, even something like Stocks would work, because Stocks would activate before TSA's prevent reactivated, therefore the prevent couldn't stop it and the interrupt wouldn't even try to target it, because it chose its targets (all characters and enhancements in play, non WC) at the time it was placed into battle.
"Negate" targets all cards before it and all cards after it. Every card (except TSA itself) is either before or after it, including Stocks.
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Ok, but that is different than Interrupt + Prevent. That is like Interrupt + Prevent all cards before and then Prevent all cards after.
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Negate (all) is an ongoing ability, and is listed as such in the REG. Just because interrupt is instant and negate performs a similar function does not make negate "instant" in that direction.
Too much has been made of interrupt + prevent = negate over the years. The intention is/was that since we understand interrupt to reach backwards and prevent to reach forwards, that negate does both functions because it reaches in both directions. Also, older cards that say "interrupt and prevent X" should now be read simply as "negate X". You start bogging yourself down in trying to micro-define them and you're going to miss the forest for the trees.
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So I guess the moral of the story is don't interrupt a negate all and then play a can't be prevented card...
You start bogging yourself down in trying to micro-define them and you're going to miss the forest for the trees.
As to that, I kind of like trees better than forests personally ;)
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Hey,
Addressing the theory in this thread, "interrupt and prevent has the same effect as negate" is true, and has been true for many years (it comes from a 2000 ruling about Ehud's Dagger [Warriors]). Somehow over the years that got morphed into "Negate = interrupt + prevent" which isn't the same thing, isn't true, and has caused a ton of confusion on the matter over the years. At least my opinion is that it isn't true (whether it's true or not doesn't have much effect on how the game is played – so making rulings assuming it is true won't make the rulings incorrect, it just makes them harder to explain – so I really hope that doesn't lead to anyone leaving the game, especially before the next release of the REG).
Props to Ben and Tim for remembering how I've explained this before.
Addressing the practical side of this thread, all “Negate All”/”Fight by the Numbers” abilities should be played as “negate and prevent all special abilities on characters and enhancements.” Abilities on cards played before the by the numbers card are negated, abilities on cards played after it are prevented. It has two special ability keywords “negate” and “prevent” but it is one ability – a compound ability (same concept as a compound verb, which as a sentence is what that ability has) – because the two keywords share a set of targets. If any part of a compound ability is normally ongoing, the compound ability is ongoing, so even though negate is normally instantaneous, in this case it is ongoing because it is part of a compound ability with the normally ongoing prevent ability.
So back to the original example, Two Thousand Horses interrupts the entire ability of The Strong Angel, because the entire ability is one compound ongoing ability. When Two Thousand Horses completes (which includes the enhancement played by it's ability) The Strong Angel reactivates, which then includes both the negate effect and the prevent effect since both were interrupted. The negate part then negates the enhancement played because of Two Thousand Horses.
Tschow,
Tim “Sir Nobody” Maly
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Since that's a Saturday, I guess you're not holding too tightly to that oath.
I remember reading a post by Tim Maly to the effect of what I wrote above.
I was so flummoxed I looked at the calendar wrong. Fortunately, after Sunday, August 2, no one will ever have to worry about me looking at the REG wrong.
It's official now.
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I was so flummoxed I looked at the calendar wrong. Fortunately, after Sunday, August 2, no one will ever have to worry about me looking at the REG wrong.
You can still play Redemption with us and just never look at the REG again..... please? :'(
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Somehow over the years that got morphed into "Negate = interrupt + prevent" which isn't the same thing
The AW insert :-p
Wow, so CBP doesn't work vs prevent abilities? *shrugs* This makes as much sense as yugioh's 'The ability on the card is negated, but since it didn't trigger yet it isn't prevented and works anyways.'. Least to me anyway.
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Hey,
Wow, so CBP doesn't work vs prevent abilities?
Not exactly sure where you got that from. Cannot be Prevented works against prevent effects, it just some cards use the word prevent when they shouldn't, and some cards don't when they should.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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so negate is its own ability and any AW inserts should be ignored cuz they are wrong?
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Hey,
so negate is its own ability and any AW inserts should be ignored cuz they are wrong?
I don't have access to the angel wars inserts for the weekend, can you quote for me the part that you are referring to?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I agree. The Angel Wars insert defines the cannot be whatevers with more clarity. They do nothing to redefine "negate".
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The Angel Wars insert that I found says:
"Cannot be prevented" means that the special ability activates when the card is played, regardless (oh no, there's that word again!) of any negate or prevent ability that is already affecting battle. However, a "cannot be prevented" ability can be interrupted or negated after it is played.
In the rare scenerio that you have "turned off" TSA's negate all with an interrupt/play next your "cannot be prevented" card would be negated when TSA's negate all kicks back in. This happens because the negate all activates after the card was played. In all other circumstances, if your "cannot be prevented" card is played after TSA's negate all is in effect your card will work.
For additional reference:
"Cannot be interrupted" is the opposite. These special abilities can be prevented before they are played. But if they are not prevented before they are played, nothing can interrupt or negate them after they are played.
"Cannot be negated" includes both of the above. These abilities cannot be prevented beforehand, and cannot be interrupted or negated after being played.