Author Topic: Trembling Demon (Read 4724 times)

Minister Polarius · « **on:** December 28, 2009, 08:20:38 PM »

Trembling Demon says "If no good Enhancement is played this battle..."

The language sounds like you start counting from when TD enters battle, but I could also see it being ruled that even if a Good Enhancement was played before he entered battle, LS's would not be Protected from Rescue. Which is it?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2009, 08:35:26 PM »

I would say it means from the time TD activates.

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2009, 08:46:31 PM »

The battle begins when the Hero enters the field of battle, not when the Evil Character blocks. If Jacob, ET or a green prophet with Hidden Treasures plays first, don't expect to "coward block" with Trembling Demon.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #3 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:11:36 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 28, 2009, 08:46:31 PM

The battle begins when the Hero enters the field of battle, not when the Evil Character blocks. If Jacob, ET or a green prophet with Hidden Treasures plays first, don't expect to "coward block" with Trembling Demon.

totally. The "this battle" sets the range to before TD entered battle.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #4 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:08:54 AM »

So TD's trigger actually reaches into the past?

SirNobody · « **Reply #5 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:15:48 AM »

Hey,

It's a condition, not a trigger.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:16:45 AM »

Since the question is whether or not any enhancements were played in the battle, which would be an end of battle decision, I don't see how the trigger/condition would not be reaching into the past.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:21:27 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 29, 2009, 11:16:45 AM

Since the question is whether or not any enhancements were played in the battle, which would be an end of battle decision, I don't see how the trigger/condition would not be reaching into the past.

I look at things gramatically. In the English language, are played refers to anything played from that time forward, not anything in the past. Otherwise, it would have been have been played. Am I right here at least?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:24:19 AM »

That I cannot answer, since I am a Math Teacher, not Grammar Teacher.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #9 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:12:44 PM »

That's correct. A literal interpretation of the card will always yield a ruling of "from this point forward." I am just wondering if that's the actual ruling.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:18:46 PM »

However, the gameplay sequencing interpretation would be that the "condition" of whether any enhancements were played this battle would not be decided until the end of battle, and would encompass the whole battle.

i.e. The battle is over. I want to meet the conditions of TD so I can use the SA. The question is now: "Was a good enhancement played this battle?"

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:00:21 PM »

But that's not what the SA on TD says. "Is" is not past-tense. When the battle is resolved, if we're going by the grammar on TD, the question would not be "was an Enhancement played," but "was an Enhancement played after TD entered battle?"

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:13:24 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 29, 2009, 01:00:21 PM

... if we're going by the grammar on TD, ...

I'm not so sure that grammar is going to be the deciding factor.

However, I will concede the point. I still would rule otherwise, but I am willing to take the side of grammar if that is what the PTBs choose.

Master KChief · « **Reply #13 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:21:11 PM »

ah, i never saw it that way. good point pol/bb.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #14 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:36:45 PM »

Silly pol... you don't use English Grammar to rule cards!

SirNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** December 29, 2009, 03:41:24 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 28, 2009, 08:46:31 PM

The battle begins when the Hero enters the field of battle, not when the Evil Character blocks. If Jacob, ET or a green prophet with Hidden Treasures plays first, don't expect to "coward block" with Trembling Demon.

This is correct. Cards are often worded grammatically based on the usual case not based on all cases, so an unusual case like an enhancement played off of ET before a blocker is presented doesn't fit quite right with the grammar of Trembling Demon, but does qualify as satisfying the condition.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** December 30, 2009, 01:46:11 AM »

"Doesn't fit quite right" in this case is Maly cutsie for "doesn't fit in the least, at all." Bryon or Schaef, could you confirm that the official special ability on TD is different than what it says? Perhaps we can issue a "play as," if that is the case?

TimMierz · « **Reply #17 on:** December 30, 2009, 09:45:17 AM »

"If your homework is done by 8:00, you can have ice cream."

If a kid did his homework before his parent said the above statement, he's entitled to ice cream, isn't he? Seems like the same thing as Trembling Demon.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #18 on:** December 30, 2009, 09:51:33 AM »

In that case, the reason the kid would still get the ice cream is simply because it can be easily stated that finishing your homework is always better to be done sooner than later.

However, I can see your side as well.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:13:01 AM »

If ice cream is involved, you might as well throw out the REG, rulebook, and pertinent grammar rules. I'm getting the ice cream and nothing is going to stop me.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:13:21 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on December 30, 2009, 09:45:17 AM

"If your homework is done by 8:00, you can have ice cream."

If a kid did his homework before his parent said the above statement, he's entitled to ice cream, isn't he? Seems like the same thing as Trembling Demon.

Actually, in Redemption terms, [homework] would have already completed and I would again argue that "is done" would not apply to a prior [homework]. You also have the difficulty of the fact that TD is a negative and your example is a positive. If your boss says, "if no customer rings the satisfaction bell today, you're fired," you'd better hope someone rings the bell after he says that, regardless of if someone had before that day. As an aside, this is why I find real-world examples ridiculous when trying to figure out Redemption rules, and will only use one to show that another is not definitive. The question is not the check, but the targeting of the check based on the grammar.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:39:06 AM »

But is done refers to the current condition of that homework. So Is done would still work on that

But with TD I could see it from both sides of view. Either way would be fine with me...

TimMierz · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:58:36 AM »

I give up, I'm joining YMT for ice cream. We're in the South, it's still above freezing here.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2009, 12:03:52 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on December 30, 2009, 10:58:36 AM

I give up, I'm joining YMT for ice cream. We're in the South, it's still above freezing here.

But its more tasty when its below 0

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2009, 01:37:09 PM »

do weapon-class enhancements placed on a hero before battle count as an enhancement played in battle?

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Author Topic: Trembling Demon (Read 4724 times)

Lamborghini_diablo