Author Topic: Throne of David and blocked (Read 7005 times)

galadgawyn · « **on:** May 01, 2012, 12:15:26 PM »

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Seven Wicked Spirits (FF)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 7 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may interrupt all Fortresses and exchange this Evil Character with any other Evil Character in play or set-aside area. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Luke 11:26 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster packs (None)

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The Throne of David (RA)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Play As: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an Enhancement that is from the O.T. and purple brigade. • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play.

The qestion is what exactly triggers Throne of David?

If I block with 7WS which interrupts Throne and then bring in other characters, by the time Throne is active again, the evil characters are already in battle. Similar situation: he rescues, I block, he bands in King Solomon to search and play Throne of David. Does it trigger with evil characters already in battle? What if I then band in another evil character?

What if I block with a banding chain of evil characters? does it trigger just once?

I've been encountering this recently so some clarification would be nice.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:36:52 PM »

If EC's are already battle, throne probably does not work. However, I am not an Elder, so don't trust me...

Chris · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »

Throne activates after all blocking is finished. It doesn't interrupt any evil character's special ability, so in your example, after SWS's ability completes, bringing in a new evil character, and that character's ability completes (along with any subsequent character abilities from characters having been banded in), THEN TToD activates.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:03:35 PM »

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:10:44 PM »

Not true. TToD activates when you place it in your territory. What you're describing is when TToD TRIGGERS. For that part your right but it triggers after characters have blocked when it was active before they blocked.

My question is partly about if it triggers when TToD is activated after the characters block. Because SWS interrupts TToD, I think it effectively would be the same situation as Solomon bringing TToD out and activating it post block but I'm not sure.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:16:34 PM »

SWS is just staying forts for a momment. He isn't int and preventing forts so all the forts would reactivate after the exchange is done. (The Int is on the character so you can take an evil character from your opponent that would otherwise be protected)

galadgawyn · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:20:50 PM »

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so all the forts would reactivate after the exchange is done

Exactly. So the fort becomes active AFTER the evil character has blocked when normally it is active BEFORE.

Chris · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:27:17 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 01, 2012, 02:20:50 PM

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so all the forts would reactivate after the exchange is done

Exactly. So the fort becomes active AFTER the evil character has blocked when normally it is active BEFORE.

No, I don't believe this is the case. SWS's interrupt ability only lasts until he exchanges, because it's not a negate, and it doesn't do anything to the fort itself. At that point, the interrupt is finished. I'm reasonably sure about that, and if it doesn't, then it definitely kicks back in after any banding is finished and all character abilities complete, so it would work.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:33:50 PM »

TToD may still work but I don't think you're understanding the situation. SWS's interrupt ability does last until the exchanged character's ability completes. This I'm sure of. I understand and agree that TToD would be active AFTER the evil characters are in battle but the point is whether it TRIGGERS at that point.

If it helps, ignore SWS and look at the Solomon example.

Part of my question here is that TToD, to me, reads as if you're looking for something to happen in the future and when it does, then it triggers. What if the blocking is in the past? Does it check for "if this is true" or "if this happens"? I hope you see difference of what I'm saying.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:03:30 PM »

I would rule that TToD reactivating after the EC has blocked (such as in the case of SWS) that it would not trigger.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:11:29 PM »

Would TToD take out Uzzah?

Just thinking through it, would TToD give you inish to int or negate Uzzah?

mjwolfe · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:37:05 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 01, 2012, 03:03:30 PM

I would rule that TToD reactivating after the EC has blocked (such as in the case of SWS) that it would not trigger.

Doesn't TToD reactivate as part of the completion of SWS' special ability that started when SWS entered battle? The trigger for a character blocking then happens AFTER the re-activation of TToD, so TToD is still triggered by it.

Mike

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:58:57 PM »

From what I know of triggers, I would disagree with Profalstad. It seems that the trigger of TToD actually trips when the first EC enters battle. However, it has to wait to resolve until all special abilities on the blocking evil character(s) finish (and any subsequent abilities that are related). SWS interrupts that, but unless you swap for an EC that negates or discards TToD, I don't see why the trigger wouldn't still be there when the exchanged-for EC finishes. Having to wait to resolve til after the exchanged EC is done is no different than having to wait for the original EC to finish. At least to me....

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:39:18 PM »

I would disagree with the Prof actually based on the most recent ruling update regarding when abilities activate, but I am not as certain as I'd like.

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Triggers have to wait for active special abilities to finish first. Triggered abilities are started by an instant event ("when X happens, do Y") or are manually triggered ("at any time X is true, you may do Y" abilities).

Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish. Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

Card Trigger Effect Ability to insert during SAs
Unknown Nation Manual Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Gates of Samaria Automatic Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Bearing Bad News Automatic Ongoing No, never for triggered abilities
Iron Pan none Ongoing Yes, it updates constantly

Another example of an "always working" ongoing check in Redemption is X/X values on characters like Silly Women or The Angel with the Secret Name. Those Xs can change during other effects, too. They don't wait and do checks after each card completes. They are fluid.

For triggered abilities like TToD (and it is an automatic triggered ability, comparable to GoS above), they never insert their ability during another cards SA. Thus, whenever an EC presents in battle (no matter who that EC is, mind you), if they have an SA it resolves immediately and then you check the ability on the triggered ability.

In the case of Uzzah, by the time TToD is able to activate (that is, after his SA completes) there is no blocker. Therefore, you cannot use its ability. It couldn't activate when the block occurred, and now it has no one to trigger off of.

In the case of SWS, TToD is going to be waiting until after the SA on SWS anyway in order to trigger. It cannot trigger before then anyway. It checks after the exchange is made, and now it finds that its condition is met. It should result in a draw + play. The interrupt actually does nothing, because the rule change means that essentially all special ability EC 'interrupt' it, or delay its activation until they are done.

Praeceps · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2012, 11:49:43 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 01, 2012, 12:15:26 PM

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The Throne of David (RA)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Play As: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an Enhancement that is from the O.T. and purple brigade. • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play.

It doesn't say when a blocker is presented, it says when the Hero is blocked so I think that once Solomon enters battle, puts Throne into play and all waiting abilities complete, then Throne would trigger without having to have a new EC presented. As long as Solomon is still being blocked Throne would trigger.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2012, 12:55:37 PM »

The problem with "blocked" is that it is not the same thing as "blocking". "Blocked" or "Blocks" is the action of placing an EC in the field of battle. "Blocking" refers to any time that an EC is in battle blocking a hero. If Solomon were to be banded in, and you dropped TToD in territory, the EC are currently "Blocking" but he is not "Blocked". Does that make sense?

I still maintain that the new ruling changes how this card should be addressed as far as when it activates (after the SA of any EC) and that SWS would still trigger it. Does anyone have anything to counter that?

Jmbeers · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2012, 07:49:21 PM »

This is how I've always played it.

I've also played it that if an opponent adds a character to battle off an artifact or from a site I'll use TToD again.

Praeceps · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 02, 2012, 12:55:37 PM

The problem with "blocked" is that it is not the same thing as "blocking". "Blocked" or "Blocks" is the action of placing an EC in the field of battle. "Blocking" refers to any time that an EC is in battle blocking a hero. If Solomon were to be banded in, and you dropped TToD in territory, the EC are currently "Blocking" but he is not "Blocked". Does that make sense?

I still maintain that the new ruling changes how this card should be addressed as far as when it activates (after the SA of any EC) and that SWS would still trigger it. Does anyone have anything to counter that?

No, no it doesn't. So you're saying that he's being blocked while he's not blocked? That makes absolutely zero sense, and I can find no set of definitions to support your argument. In the rule book/REG Blocked and Blocking both only point back to block which doesn't differentiate between the two. That's like saying that since we're not allowed to work on the sabbath, but sometimes you just really have to go somewhere, if you take two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step... etc. then you're not really traveling anywhere, thus your not really working.

Solomon is in battle. An Evil Character that is not negating him is across the battle field stopping him. Sounds like he's blocked to me.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:31:49 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 01, 2012, 07:39:18 PM

I would disagree with the Prof actually based on the most recent ruling update regarding when abilities activate, but I am not as certain as I'd like.

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Triggers have to wait for active special abilities to finish first. Triggered abilities are started by an instant event ("when X happens, do Y") or are manually triggered ("at any time X is true, you may do Y" abilities).

Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish. Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

Card Trigger Effect Ability to insert during SAs
Unknown Nation Manual Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Gates of Samaria Automatic Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Bearing Bad News Automatic Ongoing No, never for triggered abilities
Iron Pan none Ongoing Yes, it updates constantly

Another example of an "always working" ongoing check in Redemption is X/X values on characters like Silly Women or The Angel with the Secret Name. Those Xs can change during other effects, too. They don't wait and do checks after each card completes. They are fluid.

For triggered abilities like TToD (and it is an automatic triggered ability, comparable to GoS above), they never insert their ability during another cards SA. Thus, whenever an EC presents in battle (no matter who that EC is, mind you), if they have an SA it resolves immediately and then you check the ability on the triggered ability.

In the case of Uzzah, by the time TToD is able to activate (that is, after his SA completes) there is no blocker. Therefore, you cannot use its ability. It couldn't activate when the block occurred, and now it has no one to trigger off of.

In the case of SWS, TToD is going to be waiting until after the SA on SWS anyway in order to trigger. It cannot trigger before then anyway. It checks after the exchange is made, and now it finds that its condition is met. It should result in a draw + play. The interrupt actually does nothing, because the rule change means that essentially all special ability EC 'interrupt' it, or delay its activation until they are done.

I agree with this sentiment.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:12:53 PM »

"Blocking" is the only defensive term that is ongoing. "Block" and "Blocked" are always a singular action. The only exception is if a card says "while blocked by" or something similar which can be reworded as "while X is blocking." TToD does not trigger if an additional EC is banded into battle, or at least it shouldn't.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2012, 04:32:42 PM »

Wasn't talking about activating it off a band but I have activated it in the following.

I make an Ra with TToD with a purple King, opponent presents blocker and the Sa completes, I draw off TToD and then play AotL. My opponent uses Unknown Nation and puts a character in battle who's Sa completes, I'll then activate TToD again.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2012, 05:03:23 PM »

Actually, according to the REG definition of "block," you would actually get to reuse TToD even if it's a band.

Quote from: REG

Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Whenever an Evil Character enters the Field of Battle against a Hero (regardless of what point the battle is), that is considered a block.

I know the REG is wrong sometimes, but I didn't know it could be this wrong as I've never seen anyone play it that way.

Chris · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2012, 06:41:32 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 03, 2012, 05:03:23 PM

Actually, according to the REG definition of "block," you would actually get to reuse TToD even if it's a band.

Quote from: REG
Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Whenever an Evil Character enters the Field of Battle against a Hero (regardless of what point the battle is), that is considered a block.

I know the REG is wrong sometimes, but I didn't know it could be this wrong as I've never seen anyone play it that way.

My guess is that TToD doesn't activate until after all evil abilities have completed, so that when it kicks in, there are a lot of evil characters in battle, but only one block has registered.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:07:31 PM »

But that would mean TToD would activate off of a banding enhancement such as lurking.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:10:24 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on May 03, 2012, 11:07:31 PM

But that would mean TToD would activate off of a banding enhancement such as lurking.

Truth, because that is an instance of "is blocked".

"Block", "Blocks, and "Blocked" refers to when the EC is presented (and I content after all SA from that/those EC are resolved before triggering external cards like TToD). "Blocking" or "While XYZ Blocks" is ongoing and refers to the state of blocking.

So think about the first set as instant, and the latter as ongoing.

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Author Topic: Throne of David and blocked (Read 7005 times)

Chris

Chris

browarod

browarod

browarod

Chris