Author Topic: The Woman with Child (Read 5522 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **on:** July 28, 2017, 04:13:24 PM »

She says, "Protect this hero from demons. You may search deck or reserve for A Child is Born or good dominant. If it is Son of God, this cannot be interrupted."

My question:

If I search for Son of God is she protected from demons cbi?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2017, 04:19:48 PM »

From how it's worded, i would say yes, because "this" isn't clarified to only be the search.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2017, 04:21:48 PM »

I would rule yes. I think "this" refers to the whole ability and not just the search.

Watchman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2017, 04:31:35 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on July 28, 2017, 04:19:48 PM

From how it's worded, i would say yes, because "this" isn't clarified to only be the search.

But "this," combined with the good dominant SoG reference, appears to imply that the search ability is CBI. Normally, if the entire ability is CBI it would read at the end as its own sentence. But since it's tied to the SoG being the good dominant that's sought I believe it's only the search that's CBI. But I could be wrong.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2017, 04:48:43 PM »

Are there any cases already where only part of an ability is CBx? I'm pretty sure there's precedent that an entire ability is always CBx or it's not. No partial CBx's. Maybe not, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it is.

Watchman · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2017, 04:55:30 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKing on July 28, 2017, 04:48:43 PM

Are there any cases already where only part of an ability is CBx? I'm pretty sure there's precedent that an entire ability is always CBx or it's not. No partial CBx's. Maybe not, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it is.

Well part of Namaan's ability is CBN but not all of it. Not exactly the same situation but the same principle.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2017, 04:58:00 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKing on July 28, 2017, 04:48:43 PM

Are there any cases already where only part of an ability is CBx? I'm pretty sure there's precedent that an entire ability is always CBx or it's not. No partial CBx's. Maybe not, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it is.

The only card that I can think of that could have only part of it's ability CNx (other than with abilities like "Discard abilities cannot be negated" or abilities that give CBx) is Golden Calf from the 10th Anniversary Starter Deck, who's ability says: Prevent all special abilities on O.T. Heroes. Cannot be Negated. Discard this artifact if Moses, Hosea or Amos wins a battle.

Along with the REG quote (CBI and CBP have similar entries):

Quote

When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be negated modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be negated modifier modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing “cannot be negated”.

So I would argue that the Discard portion of Golden Calf would be negatable even though the prevent is CBN.

However in the case of The Woman with Child, the CBI is after the entire ability and therefore applies to the entire ability. Although the word "this" could be interpreted differently than I am interpreting it.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2017, 05:01:00 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKing on July 28, 2017, 04:48:43 PM

Are there any cases already where only part of an ability is CBx? I'm pretty sure there's precedent that an entire ability is always CBx or it's not. No partial CBx's. Maybe not, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it is.

Thomas from Di

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2017, 05:24:27 PM »

The protection and the search are separate abilities so it is definitely possible for only one of them to be CBI. Because the CBI granting part says "if it is Son of God", I would rule it is referring to the search ability specifically and only that ability would be CBI. I could see it being ruled either way though.

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2017, 05:32:53 PM »

I believe our conclusion during playtesting was that the entire ability was CBI. I do not recall offhand how we made that determination, but I think we had a precedent.

Watchman · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2017, 05:40:03 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 28, 2017, 05:32:53 PM

I believe our conclusion during playtesting was that the entire ability was CBI. I do not recall offhand how we made that determination, but I think we had a precedent.

Could this be verified with the elder team to make sure? I've always played it as if it was just the search ability that was CBI if SoG was sought.

Thanks

jbeers285 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:33:22 PM »

If I search out AotL and play it then TWwC gets negated does AotL go back in my deck? According to cascade negate I would say yes. But I am not sure.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:39:34 PM »

No because of dominant that has already been played cannot be put back even if the card that got it out is negated.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:44:20 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 28, 2017, 09:39:34 PM

No because of dominant that has already been played cannot put back even if the card that got it out is negated.

That's not the reason why the dominant doesn't go back. Playing a card gotten with a draw or search doesn't mean it can't be cascaded back (Play abilities are a different story since they are CBI). If you got A Child is Born with WWC, played it, then WWC was negated, A Child is Born would go back wherever it came from. The reason a played dominant stays in discard is the thing that put is in discard is the game rule that discards dominants after you play them and you can't negate a game rule. If the dominant was something like 3 Woes that doesn't discard after use, it would still not be shuffled because the placement ability of 3 Woes cannot be negated.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:49:49 PM »

Are you saying that the only things that can be Cascade negated are things in play? So if you went and got guardians of your souls that could not be put back either. So only cards that are no longer in play are not affected by negating the character?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:51:59 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 28, 2017, 09:49:49 PM

Are you saying that the only things that can be Cascade negated are things in play? So if you went and got guardians of your souls that could not be put back either. So only cards that are no longer in play are not affected by negating the character?

That's not what I said. It being in play or not doesn't matter. The reason it isn't cascaded back into deck is because you can't negate the game rule that discards it. You are right about Guardian but only because Guardian places itself in LoR CBN.

If used War to search out an evil weapon that discards itself to discard a Hero and War was negated, the weapon would get cascaded even though it's out of play because it was put out of play by a negatable thing (Its own ability), not discarded by game rule like a dominant.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:53:56 PM »

So going back to my original statement dominant cards that have already been played cannot be negated so they stay.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #17 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:55:45 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 28, 2017, 09:53:56 PM

So going back to my original statement dominant cards that have already been played cannot be negated so they stay.

In the case of Guardian and Woes, yes. For dominants that are discarded after use, they stay in discard because the game rule that discards it after it completes can't be negated.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #18 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:58:33 PM »

I understand what you're saying but I think you're creating more than there needs to be. You had to edit your comment about the three woes. I didn't think the Cascade negates affected cannot be negated cards. So you're right about the angel of the Lord but it wouldn't be the same reason for the three woes. Some people don't care why it works and they don't really need to know all of the intricate details. If you just think of it like I said once a dominant has been played it cannot be unplayed it makes everything easier.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #19 on:** July 28, 2017, 10:02:38 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 28, 2017, 09:58:33 PM

I understand what you're saying but I think you're creating more than there needs to be. You had to edit your comment about the three woes. I didn't think the Cascade negates affected cannot be negated cards. So you're right about the angel of the Lord but it wouldn't be the same reason for the three woes.

I'm just making sure it's understood that the card being CBN has nothing to do with whether cascading the search shuffles it back into deck or not. A Child is Born is CBN but if WWC searched for that and played it before getting negated ACiB would still get shuffled.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #20 on:** July 28, 2017, 10:08:58 PM »

So let's go back to my original statement one more time. Dominant cards that have already been played cannot be unplayed. I don't care why if it's game rules or if it's can not be negated and I don't think anyone else cares as long as the statement is correct. So do you agree that the statement above is correct?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2017, 10:39:17 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 28, 2017, 10:08:58 PM

So let's go back to my original statement one more time. Dominant cards that have already been played cannot be unplayed. I don't care why if it's game rules or if it's can not be negated and I don't think anyone else cares as long as the statement is correct. So do you agree that the statement above is correct?

That statement isn't actually right but it does happen to have the same outcome as the correct answers.

"Simplifying" the answer to a question by giving a wrong answer that happens to have the same result is an incredibly unhealthy practice.

Adevine · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2017, 11:03:15 PM »

ok...I am just speechless...

Jeremystair · « **Reply #23 on:** July 28, 2017, 11:12:00 PM »

Quote from: Adevine on July 28, 2017, 11:03:15 PM

ok...I am just speechless...

Me too!

Red Wing · « **Reply #24 on:** July 28, 2017, 11:31:34 PM »

Quote from: Adevine on July 28, 2017, 11:03:15 PM

ok...I am just speechless...

That's what this board is for

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Author Topic: The Woman with Child (Read 5522 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

Adevine