Author Topic: The Sabbath  (Read 2153 times)

Offline Praeceps

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The Sabbath
« on: June 20, 2016, 12:13:12 AM »
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The Sabbath - Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn. For the next one of those Heroes that enters battle, good Enhancements used by that Hero cannot be negated.

Since the CBN modifier that is gained has no specified duration, is it a permanently gained ability?
Just one more thing...

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2016, 03:17:58 AM »
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The wiki has a play-as that clarifies "that battle" at the end of the ability but as we all know the wiki isn't the most reliable source. Based on the ability's wording I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be permanent.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 12:15:20 PM »
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The last ruling I can find is Dayne saying that it only lasted for the next battle of the Heroes that were set aside (Jan 2014).



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Offline Josh

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 12:24:16 PM »
+2
The wiki has a play-as that clarifies "that battle" at the end of the ability but as we all know the wiki isn't the most reliable source. Based on the ability's wording I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be permanent.

+ 1 to this.  Nothing in that ability says "lasts for one battle only" to me.  I've always played it as permanent.

Compare with:

Passover Preparations - "Set aside a Hero that has no special ability for four turns.  Upon return enhancements played on Hero may not be interrupted, prevented, or negated."

If Passover Preparations is permanent, The Sabbath should as well.  The phrase "For the next one of those Heroes that enters battle" only indicates which hero gains the permanent CBN GEs; it is not additionally saying that it only lasts for that one battle.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2016, 01:38:05 PM »
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The last ruling I can find is Dayne saying that it only lasted for the next battle of the Heroes that were set aside (Jan 2014).
Do you have a link to that or a quote with his reasoning? Or I guess Dayne could share his knowledge once his sees this.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2016, 07:26:14 PM »
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The ruling for this card has indeed been that it only activates for the next of those Heroes to enter battle, and just for that battle.

There is a trigger on the card for "the next one to enter battle," meaning that this is when the CBN clause activates.  It is not always active from the moment of return (different from Passover Preparations in this regard).  Since it triggers in that battle, the gained ability lasts until end of phase by default unless specified otherwise.  Because Passover Preparations gives a gained benefit as a blanket condition upon return, it is a different and permanent time frame.  This contrasts with Sabbath, which gives the gained ability only upon entering battle, hence the duration difference.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2016, 08:11:32 PM »
+3
The ruling for this card has indeed been that it only activates for the next of those Heroes to enter battle, and just for that battle.

There is a trigger on the card for "the next one to enter battle," meaning that this is when the CBN clause activates. It is not always active from the moment of return (different from Passover Preparations in this regard).  Since it triggers in that battle, the gained ability lasts until end of phase by default unless specified otherwise.  Because Passover Preparations gives a gained benefit as a blanket condition upon return, it is a different and permanent time frame.  This contrasts with Sabbath, which gives the gained ability only upon entering battle, hence the duration difference.

See, I disagree. It is active, if only as a pending trigger as to who gains the ability. But even if I'm wrong, entirely possible, your logic in saying that the ability only lasts for the battle because it has to wait for the battle to start fails in that it is a gained ability that has no duration attached to it. So how can you retroactively give it a duration based on when it starts when the REG says nothing of the sort (unless I missed something, but a search for gained ability shows no evidence for your argument)?
Just one more thing...

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2016, 08:35:33 PM »
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The ruling for this card has indeed been that it only activates for the next of those Heroes to enter battle, and just for that battle.

There is a trigger on the card for "the next one to enter battle," meaning that this is when the CBN clause activates. It is not always active from the moment of return (different from Passover Preparations in this regard).  Since it triggers in that battle, the gained ability lasts until end of phase by default unless specified otherwise.  Because Passover Preparations gives a gained benefit as a blanket condition upon return, it is a different and permanent time frame.  This contrasts with Sabbath, which gives the gained ability only upon entering battle, hence the duration difference.

See, I disagree. It is active, if only as a pending trigger as to who gains the ability. But even if I'm wrong, entirely possible, your logic in saying that the ability only lasts for the battle because it has to wait for the battle to start fails in that it is a gained ability that has no duration attached to it. So how can you retroactively give it a duration based on when it starts when the REG says nothing of the sort (unless I missed something, but a search for gained ability shows no evidence for your argument)?

This is similar to my position.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2016, 08:46:39 PM »
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The ruling for this card has indeed been that it only activates for the next of those Heroes to enter battle, and just for that battle.

There is a trigger on the card for "the next one to enter battle," meaning that this is when the CBN clause activates. It is not always active from the moment of return (different from Passover Preparations in this regard).  Since it triggers in that battle, the gained ability lasts until end of phase by default unless specified otherwise.  Because Passover Preparations gives a gained benefit as a blanket condition upon return, it is a different and permanent time frame.  This contrasts with Sabbath, which gives the gained ability only upon entering battle, hence the duration difference.

See, I disagree. It is active, if only as a pending trigger as to who gains the ability. But even if I'm wrong, entirely possible, your logic in saying that the ability only lasts for the battle because it has to wait for the battle to start fails in that it is a gained ability that has no duration attached to it. So how can you retroactively give it a duration based on when it starts when the REG says nothing of the sort (unless I missed something, but a search for gained ability shows no evidence for your argument)?

The newbie (me) agrees with Praeceps.  The first time I saw The Sabbath, my initial interpretation was that it was a permanent ability as there is no specified duration, only a trigger as to when The Sabbath's SA activates.  If the intent of the ability was to limit it to only one battle, I believe it would have been specified in the SA verbiage.  I can understand Dayne's point, but unless there's something in the REG that backs up his point about the SA only lasting until the end of that battle, I would make the argument that this is a permanent ability, as Passover Preps' ability is permanent. 

Dayne - Please advise where the ruling for this issue was noted; I'd like to read it.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2016, 10:14:26 PM »
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For The Sabbath, it is a delayed trigger; the ability 'completes' (and is gained) upon the character entering battle.  There is a trigger waiting to activate, and as with triggers the ability completes at that moment.  Since it completes at that moment (and must do so, as the ability cannot complete until a character enters battle and activates the trigger), we have to look to see whether there is any change to the default length of time to have the modifier applied.  There is nothing on the card to indicate that it is permanent, and just like all ongoing effects, modifiers like Cannot Be Negated end at the end of the phase unless otherwise indicated:

Quote from: REG 3.1.0 > Modifiers
If a modifier is granted to abilities that are on other cards, the ability to gain the modification granted by the modifier persists until end of the current phase by default.

So the triggered ability activates in battle (upon the Hero entering), and completes at that moment.  As we have no other indication that this card has an extended, let alone permanent, duration from the time of its completion, the ability lasts until end of phase, in this case the current Battle Phase.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2016, 10:29:19 PM »
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For The Sabbath, it is a delayed trigger; the ability 'completes' (and is gained) upon the character entering battle.  There is a trigger waiting to activate, and as with triggers the ability completes at that moment.  Since it completes at that moment (and must do so, as the ability cannot complete until a character enters battle and activates the trigger), we have to look to see whether there is any change to the default length of time to have the modifier applied.  There is nothing on the card to indicate that it is permanent, and just like all ongoing effects, modifiers like Cannot Be Negated end at the end of the phase unless otherwise indicated:

Quote from: REG 3.1.0 > Modifiers
If a modifier is granted to abilities that are on other cards, the ability to gain the modification granted by the modifier persists until end of the current phase by default.

So the triggered ability activates in battle (upon the Hero entering), and completes at that moment.  As we have no other indication that this card has an extended, let alone permanent, duration from the time of its completion, the ability lasts until end of phase, in this case the current Battle Phase.

I understand what you're saying here - But this directly contradicts the 'gained ability' nature of Set-Asides (Side-Note: Why do we not have a 'Gained Abilities' section in the REG?) Sabbath Completes on the turn that it was played (Set-asides are instant abilities) the determination of which Hero gains CBN status is the only thing that's looked at in battle.
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2016, 10:33:41 PM »
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For The Sabbath...

See, the problem with your quote is that Sabbath isn't granting a modifier to an ability. Sabbath is granting a character the ability to grant a modifier to abilities. There is a difference. Ezekiel grants a modifier. Besieged grants a modifier. Heck, Jericho grants a modifier. Sabbath does not.
Just one more thing...

Offline Redoubter

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2016, 11:18:09 PM »
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Sabbath Completes on the turn that it was played

It cannot "complete" until it also has a Hero to trigger and grant a gained ability, otherwise it does not work; there is still a delayed trigger being applied at a later time, not all of those characters have CBN enhancements the next time they enter battle, determined individually, it is determined overall and so this indicates a trigger.

For The Sabbath...

See, the problem with your quote is that Sabbath isn't granting a modifier to an ability. Sabbath is granting a character the ability to grant a modifier to abilities. There is a difference. Ezekiel grants a modifier. Besieged grants a modifier. Heck, Jericho grants a modifier. Sabbath does not.

Not really how abilities work overall, and this response glosses over the rest of the post and the whole picture of what is happening.  The Sabbath is not just ignored after being played, and there is still a trigger to be resolved later.

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 12:10:57 AM »
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I'm with the dissenters on this. As far as I know, set aside gained abilities are permanent unless a duration is specified. They, to my understanding, are a built-in exception to the "lasts the phase" default. As Redoubter has admitted, Sabbath doesn't specify a duration, but contrary to his thinking that this means it only lasts the phase I would agree with those saying that it actually lasts indefinitely.

Offline kram1138

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 09:28:27 AM »
+1
Actually, I think what he is saying is that it's not a gained ability. The card never says that the hero gains the ability to grant CBN to enhancements, it just says that the enhancements used by that hero are CBN. It is an ongoing ability that is triggered when the hero enters battle, then like other ongoing abilities, lasts until end of phase. Not a gained ability.

If it said "the next hero to enter battle gains the ability 'all enhancements played on this hero are CBN'", then I agree that it would be permanent.
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browarod

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2016, 10:43:51 PM »
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Actually, I think what he is saying is that it's not a gained ability.
....the ability 'completes' (and is gained) upon the character entering battle....
He has already admitted it's a gained ability.

As to wording, Sabbath is worded almost the exact same as Passover Preparations (near the top of this thread) and I don't think anyone is arguing that PP is not a permanent gained ability (because if it's not then it literally does nothing except make TC enhancements on that hero CBN for 1 phase), so Sabbath should be treated the same (except that it doesn't choose the hero to gain the ability until one enters battle).

What I'm not understanding from Redoubter's argument is why he is saying the clause that chooses the character to gain the ability, by means of having the first one enter battle, somehow changes the otherwise default duration of set aside gained abilities.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 10:48:42 PM by Browa »

Offline Redoubter

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 10:14:24 AM »
+2
Sabbath is not worded the same as PP. There is a trigger not yet completed on Sabbath, which is the reason it functions differently. PP is done once the character returns, but Sabbath is waiting to trigger until battle. That is when it finishes, and granting CBN there lasts until end of phase. It is frankly different from other set aside cards in this respect; it does not give a gained ability on return that just is permanent, instead waiting for a trigger, which then activates the CBN for that battle phase.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 11:46:24 AM »
+1
I think you're correct that The Sabbath grants a one-time ability to grant an ability to make enchantments CBN. However, think if there were a Hero with the exact same ability, "good enhancements used by ... Hero cannot be negated." then it would not be permeant. All it boils down to is whether "the next time hero enters battle" is tied to both which hero gains the ability and for how long, or only one of the two. All three options have slightly different outcomes and are valid. Unless it's problematic somehow, I agree that the current ruling option is the most intuitive.
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Offline Josh

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 11:55:39 AM »
+2
Sabbath is not worded the same as PP. There is a trigger not yet completed on Sabbath, which is the reason it functions differently. PP is done once the character returns, but Sabbath is waiting to trigger until battle. That is when it finishes, and granting CBN there lasts until end of phase. It is frankly different from other set aside cards in this respect; it does not give a gained ability on return that just is permanent, instead waiting for a trigger, which then activates the CBN for that battle phase.

PP could be ruled the same, as it does not say that the hero gains an ability.  You could just as easily argue that the Hero that returns from PP could only use CBN TC enhancements for the remainder of that Prep Phase.  I'm not understanding why delaying The Sabbath's trigger to grant CBN enhancements makes The Sabbath different than PP.

I can understand the logic you've given for why The Sabbath is not a gained ability; I don't understand why PP doesn't follow the same logic though.

If PP said "Upon return and that hero's next rescue, ...", would that make it temporary?
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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 12:18:20 PM »
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i agree with redoubter, polarius, and others that intuitively the sabbath is a one time use for the next hero who enters battle for that battle.

that's how i would rule it if i were a judge/tournament host and the question arose

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2016, 12:53:59 PM »
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fwiw i love english

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2016, 11:05:06 PM »
+1
*UPDATE*

The Sabbath is a one time trigger, which applies during the battle phase only.

The next REG update will include a better defined entry for Set-Aside, as well as a new entry for the Modifier/Keyword 'Gains'
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