Author Topic: The New Covenant (Read 4618 times)

adotson85 · « **on:** April 14, 2012, 01:07:45 AM »

Can I play The New Covenant during my discard phase to return one of my captured heroes to my territory?

The New Covenant (Di)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 4 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: At any time, you may place this card beneath your deck to heal all N.T. Heroes, return all captured N.T. Heroes to territory, or discard all evil cards on N.T. Heroes. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Luke 22:19-20

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:36:51 AM »

If it was your Captured hero, u can activate it if it's an Artifact. I do not believe u can otherwise.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2012, 08:37:13 AM »

You can if your heroes are being discarded because it is a healing enhancement if it is in your hand. You can.

Nameless · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2012, 08:52:28 AM »

I really do not see why you could not.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:04:11 AM »

This card has a conditional special ability that would require it to be actively in play first. I would say that you can not use it as an ordinary healing enhancement that has no condition for activation.

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:11:47 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 14, 2012, 09:04:11 AM

This card has a conditional special ability that would require it to be actively in play first.

Not sure where you're getting this from. Unless you mean the "at any time" part, which would seem to be satisfied (to me) even playing it as an enhancement in the discard phase.

My

is that you could play it as an enhancement in the discard phase if and only if you are using it to heal (as heal and set aside are the only non-TC enhancement abilities that can be used outside of battle). You can't use either of the other special abilities at that time.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:13:45 AM »

At face-value, this is a "Place" card. You must place the card before you can do anything. You are not allowed to play a "place" card in the Discard Phase unless you have High Places active.

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:25:47 AM »

So if an enhancement existed with the special ability: "Place on a hero to heal it to face value. Protect it from decrease while this card remains." you'd rule that I couldn't play it outside of battle?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:35:45 AM »

Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2012, 09:25:47 AM

So if an enhancement existed with the special ability: "Place on a hero to heal it to face value. Protect it from decrease while this card remains." you'd rule that I couldn't play it outside of battle?

Just tell me which card it is so we can address that separately.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:37:01 AM »

No need to be rude, I'm just wondering where the rule is that having "place" in the special ability overrides game rule regarding healing abilities.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:38:43 AM »

So you're not going to tell me which card you are talking about?

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:41:07 AM »

I'm talking about The New Covenant and that it has a heal special ability which should mean, per game rule, that you can play it on a character of matching brigade in territory (or recently discarded) outside of battle. To my knowledge, the rule doesn't stipulate between healing abilities with and those without the word "place" in the special ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:46:37 AM »

I'm talking about a conditional ability. The "place" ability must be activated, otherwise the card does nothing. You can not play a "place" card at will.

Now, with that said, it is possible that the old wording on heal cards said "place." If that is true, then I need an example, which it seems you are aware of one (unless you were speaking hypothetically). We then need to see if those cards have a "play-as." If they do not, then your argument would prevail.

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:40:09 AM »

I was speaking hypothetically based on the game rule regarding heal cards. Where does it say place cards are restricted from being played at a given time if a different part of their ability allows it (or relates to a game rule that allows it)?

I mean, set asides have a place ability of sorts inherent in their usage.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:23:14 AM »

Quote from: REG

Playing Healing Enhancements

Healing enhancements can be played in battle (during the battle phase) or outside of battle. When played during the battle phase they must be played according to the rules that govern when other enhancements can be played. A player has the option to play a healing enhancement during the preparation phase and the discard phase. A healing enhancement played in this way must be played on a character of matching brigade in one of two ways: (1) on a character in the holder's territory or (2) on a character in the holder's discard pile (if the character was discarded in the same turn). Both result in that character being healed. Healing cards played on a character in a discard pile must target the same character.

...

Healing

A healing enhancement is an enhancement with “heal” in its special ability. Healing abilities cure characters that have been poisoned, infected or are in the process of being discarded. They are played following a battle phase or anytime during a turn. The card is put to use when placed in the Field of Play with a character of a matching brigade.

...

A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable.

Conclusion: TNC is a healing enhancement, and can be played from hand when an appropriate target (discarded, poisoned, or diseased) is available. It's entire ability activates, and thus it is placed under deck in order to heal. The one thing that is not 100% clear from the REG is if you can play it from hand when a character is healable but then use its other ability to return captured heroes and let the heal targets be discarded/poisoned/diseased. I would have to rule that it can be based strictly on the REG quote, but I could certainly see an argument against that.

What I am certain of is that you can only play it from hand outside of battle if a character is healable. You cannot play it as a healing enhancement if there are no healable targets.

Praeceps · « **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:41:43 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 14, 2012, 11:23:14 AM

Quote from: REG
Playing Healing Enhancements

Healing enhancements can be played in battle (during the battle phase) or outside of battle. When played during the battle phase they must be played according to the rules that govern when other enhancements can be played. A player has the option to play a healing enhancement during the preparation phase and the discard phase. A healing enhancement played in this way must be played on a character of matching brigade in one of two ways: (1) on a character in the holder's territory or (2) on a character in the holder's discard pile (if the character was discarded in the same turn). Both result in that character being healed. Healing cards played on a character in a discard pile must target the same character.

...

Healing

A healing enhancement is an enhancement with “heal” in its special ability. Healing abilities cure characters that have been poisoned, infected or are in the process of being discarded. They are played following a battle phase or anytime during a turn. The card is put to use when placed in the Field of Play with a character of a matching brigade.

...

A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable.

Conclusion: TNC is a healing enhancement, and can be played from hand when an appropriate target (discarded, poisoned, or diseased) is available. It's entire ability activates, and thus it is placed under deck in order to heal. The one thing that is not 100% clear from the REG is if you can play it from hand when a character is healable but then use its other ability to return captured heroes and let the heal targets be discarded/poisoned/diseased. I would have to rule that it can be based strictly on the REG quote, but I could certainly see an argument against that.

What I am certain of is that you can only play it from hand outside of battle if a character is healable. You cannot play it as a healing enhancement if there are no healable targets.

I think it was decided that if you played TNC as a healing enhancement, you could only use the healing portion of the ability.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/the-new-covenant-useage-questions/msg466147/?topicseen#msg466147

Professoralstad · « **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:48:38 AM »

It's an issue of "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law". The letter of the law allows you to play healing enhancements when a healable character is available. It does not specifically say you must play them to heal those characters (except when the character playing it is in the discard pile). The spirit of the law would suggest that you can only use the heal ability when you use it as a healing enhancement. I usually rule on the letter of the law, though I would prefer being able to rule on the spirit of the law. It's probably something that would rarely come up (I would hope) since poison/diseases are pretty uncommon, but I guess I'd have to leave it up to a judge.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #17 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:38:58 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 14, 2012, 11:48:38 AM

It's an issue of "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law". The letter of the law allows you to play healing enhancements when a healable character is available. It does not specifically say you must play them to heal those characters (except when the character playing it is in the discard pile). The spirit of the law would suggest that you can only use the heal ability when you use it as a healing enhancement. I usually rule on the letter of the law, though I would prefer being able to rule on the spirit of the law. It's probably something that would rarely come up (I would hope) since poison/diseases are pretty uncommon, but I guess I'd have to leave it up to a judge.

I agree with this. Strictly speaking, the only real stipulation for a heal enhancement is that it must be played on a healable character. In the case of The New Covenant, I see no evidence to suggest that, once the ability activates, you can't use it to return captured heroes to territory.

megamanlan · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2012, 04:56:53 PM »

This is what I was saying, but I'd never use TNC as an Enhancement anyway.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2012, 05:10:40 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on April 14, 2012, 04:56:53 PM

This is what I was saying, but I'd never use TNC as an Enhancement anyway.

I don't for capturing, but I prefer to keep it in hand unless I'm setting aside a lot of heroes (in fear of DD) so that I'm not using an artifact slot.

megamanlan · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2012, 05:46:24 PM »

My Deck runs only a handful of Arts so I can use more Characters/Enhancements.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2012, 05:16:54 PM »

The rule was written before there were healing cards that could be played without trying to heal anything. I am 100% for the letter of the law as the spirit is subjective. However, I do think that the letter needs to be amended to work as intended.

megamanlan · « **Reply #22 on:** April 15, 2012, 10:24:20 PM »

So are u saying u'd rather have TNC work w/o a target to heal? Or are u meaning the 'Place under Deck' part?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** April 15, 2012, 11:47:52 PM »

I'm saying that right now, the letter of the law appears to allow TNC to do any of its 3 abilities when played as a healing card outside battle, provided there is a legal target for healing. I am also saying that this loophole in the rules should be closed.

megamanlan · « **Reply #24 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:37:56 AM »

Okay. I just wanted to be clear. I don't think that it would actually work like that, and that seems to be what quite a few others here think too. Personally I think it should be ruled that it won't be able to be used like that.

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Author Topic: The New Covenant (Read 4618 times)

browarod

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Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy