Author Topic: The Four Living Creatures are Musicians? (Read 3630 times)

megamanlan · « **on:** July 03, 2017, 05:48:02 AM »

I've been questioning this... why aren't the Four Living Creatures Musicians?

The Four Living Creatures function as the ones who sing and lead praise & worship in Revelation.

“The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!””
Revelation‬ 4:8‬ NKJV‬‬

“Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.”
Revelation‬ 5:11-14‬ NKJV‬‬

Now when I looked on REG there is nothing to claim that Musicians can only be humans... and as the function of the Four Living Creatures seems to be leading worship and song, shouldn't they have a Musician identifier?

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2017, 08:01:39 AM »

Musician is an identifier we've chosen to apply to only humans.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2017, 01:35:10 PM »

jbeers285 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2017, 01:37:41 PM »

Not to mention the verses you listed all said "saying" doesn't seem to be any singing involved from the context you provided.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2017, 01:39:05 PM »

In Hebrew there's no distinction between saying poetry and singing.

Edit: Not sure it's the same in Greek.

megamanlan · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2017, 02:34:27 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on July 03, 2017, 01:37:41 PM

Not to mention the verses you listed all said "saying" doesn't seem to be any singing involved from the context you provided.

I'll admit that's the version. Other versions say they sing those verses.

Quote from: Gabe on July 03, 2017, 08:01:39 AM

Musician is an identifier we've chosen to apply to only humans.

Why? Especially considering that we don't have real evidence that the Twenty-Four Elders are really humans either... or at least the Bible doesn't say what they are besides just being "Elders".

jesse · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2017, 02:48:36 PM »

I think that if you open up angels to be musicians, then practically all of them would be because one of the primary things that they do is worship/sing, and that happens throughout the Bible. Also, the 24 elders are definitely humans, as they claim in Revelation 5:9 to be among those who have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb – which applies only to humans.

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2017, 02:58:46 PM »

Quote from: jesse on July 03, 2017, 02:48:36 PM

I think that if you open up angels to be musicians, then practically all of them would be because one of the primary things that they do is worship/sing, and that happens throughout the Bible. Also, the 24 elders are definitely humans, as they claim in Revelation 5:9 to be among those who have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb – which applies only to humans.

Bingo.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2017, 06:13:21 PM »

Quote

I think that if you open up angels to be musicians, then practically all of them would be because one of the primary things that they do is worship/sing, and that happens throughout the Bible.

That's not true at all. Only Cherubim and Four Living Creatures (maybe Great Multitude) would be Angelic musicians.

megamanlan · « **Reply #9 on:** July 04, 2017, 06:57:42 AM »

Quote from: jesse on July 03, 2017, 02:48:36 PM

I think that if you open up angels to be musicians, then practically all of them would be because one of the primary things that they do is worship/sing, and that happens throughout the Bible. Also, the 24 elders are definitely humans, as they claim in Revelation 5:9 to be among those who have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb – which applies only to humans.

I forgot that reference. (I'll still argue that them having Silver would have been fine but I digress.) Although at the same time, the Four Living Creatures are also singing this song...

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** July 04, 2017, 10:27:46 AM »

It's been stated many times before that simply singing a song does not make a character a musician.

megamanlan · « **Reply #11 on:** July 04, 2017, 01:43:28 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 04, 2017, 10:27:46 AM

It's been stated many times before that simply singing a song does not make a character a musician.

I know. My point was that the Four Living Creatures are explictly know as the leaders of worship to God in Heaven. But since Angels won't count for Musicians, that doesn't matter.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** July 04, 2017, 02:45:29 PM »

I'll just throw in my

based on what has been said so far:

1. The REG says that a musician is a "person," which would lead me to believe they should be human.
2. Having an angel gain an identifier that we normally see as being for humans is not without precedent (i.e. Gabriel is a prophet).
3. I think we should research exactly how many angels would qualify. We don't want any unforeseen OP combos arising.
4. In just reading the verses that have been posted, I don't see any evidence of meeting the musician definition for FLC.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2017, 09:23:58 AM »

Cherubim and FLC are specifically employed as worshipers, the "sang songs once" line is totally inapplicable.

kariusvega · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2017, 09:56:52 AM »

The only way to get out of angels not being musicians is by sticking to "humans only" by reg definition Biblically there is no escaping the fact they at very least involve music

Granted Music Leader would be insanely good if they did. Not sure the game could handle it currently lol maybe next year musicians win with the Tabernacle and Angels :-)

Daniel Michael with recurring PoA, Wheel, and Michael's Sword is already extremely lit :-)

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2017, 10:36:56 AM »

Quote

The only way to get out of angels not being musicians is by sticking to "humans only" by reg definition Biblically there is no escaping the fact they at very least involve music

I don't think anyone is disputing that, but as Gabe said we have decided to keep Musician a human only identifier for the time being. Not saying that could never change, but it is the rule for now.

h20tor · « **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2017, 11:40:24 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on July 06, 2017, 09:56:52 AM

Daniel Michael with recurring PoA, Wheel, and Michael's Sword is already extremely lit :-)

PoA?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2017, 11:43:01 AM »

Quote from: h20tor on July 06, 2017, 11:40:24 AM

Quote from: kariusvega on July 06, 2017, 09:56:52 AM
Daniel Michael with recurring PoA, Wheel, and Michael's Sword is already extremely lit :-)

PoA?

Protection of Angels

spacy32 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2017, 02:18:21 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on July 03, 2017, 01:37:41 PM

Not to mention the verses you listed all said "saying" doesn't seem to be any singing involved from the context you provided.

By this are you saying rap is not music

Ironisaac · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2017, 02:24:31 PM »

Quote from: spacy32 on July 06, 2017, 02:18:21 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on July 03, 2017, 01:37:41 PM
Not to mention the verses you listed all said "saying" doesn't seem to be any singing involved from the context you provided.

By this are you saying rap is not music

But what if animals are actually musicians?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qmdq6dz0AEs

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2017, 02:38:06 PM »

Quote from: Pandora

Gee, I wonder what's in the box...

spacy32 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2017, 07:26:47 PM »

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on July 06, 2017, 05:58:34 PM

Animals are all either Evil Characters or DAC so them being musicians wouldn't make sense.
In terms of whether or not the FLC is a musician I asked if Frog Demons was a magician and I believe the answer was the same with Magicians only able to be humans so changing the FLC to a musician might affect several other identifiers. I'm not entirely sure all the identifiers that are considered only applicable to humans but could be interpreted to apply to both, but lets hope there's not many.

On that note. Could there be evil Musicians. Just a thought because wouldn't they sing to their gods also.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2017, 09:11:56 AM »

There is nothing inherently musical about all angels. Where are y'all getting that?

Zerutul · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2017, 11:29:49 AM »

I think its more of a balancing issue then an actual "theological debate issue". Humans should only be allowed to be musicians. They are already overpowered as it is.

megamanlan · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2017, 04:24:00 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 13, 2017, 09:11:56 AM

There is nothing inherently musical about all angels. Where are y'all getting that?

It's better explained in an Angelology course, but it's spread across Scripture. Ezekiel and Revelation both directly state angels singing. The Cherubim/Four Living Creatures lead worship of God. Even Satan is called a music leader.

Quote from: Zerutul on July 13, 2017, 11:29:49 AM

I think its more of a balancing issue then an actual "theological debate issue". Humans should only be allowed to be musicians. They are already overpowered as it is.

Depends on what you mean. As in Angels are already fairly OP, I somewhat agree. On the other hand, Musicians currently are okay. Really Music Leader is OP, but most Musicians are okay to meh.

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Author Topic: The Four Living Creatures are Musicians? (Read 3630 times)

kariusvega