Author Topic: Thaddeus VS Foreign Spearmen  (Read 1077 times)

Offline asrgimli

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Thaddeus VS Foreign Spearmen
« on: December 14, 2013, 08:57:55 AM »
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So I have a question.  If Thaddeus makes a rescue when more than 6 Disciples are in play and is blocked by Foreign Spearmen, what happens to enhancements played?  Since Foreign Spearmen's ability is not prevented, the enhancements played are supposed to be tossed, but Thaddeus protects pretty much everything in and out of play.  Do the enhancements get tossed, or does Thad's protection make it so that they are still played?  And if they are tossed, wouldn't Thad's protection keep him and anyone else from getting hurt by Foreign Spearmen's tossing so that the only one who can get hurt that battle would be Foreign Spearmen?

Thaddeus - Protect all cards in play, set-aside area, Artifact piles, hands, and decks from Evil Characters with toughness X or less. Cannot be interrupted.

Foreign Spearmen - While blocking alone, toss all enhancements that are played this battle. Cannot be interrupted.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Thaddeus VS Foreign Spearmen
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2013, 09:56:57 AM »
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Quote from: REG 2.0
How to Play
A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the numbers or special
abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength
of the discarded enhancement).

I don't know that this ever got fully resolved.  ProfA stated that Toss was worded to get around protection (which I was disputing in that thread).  Gabe posted a response that was unclear as to his position, but then Byron seemed to agree with me, though perhaps he misinterpreted.

I would argue that since Thaddeus protects all cards in play and out of play (that are relevant to this discussion...), either interpretation (that they are "tossed" instead of being played, or played then "tossed" from play) would result in no Toss.  However, if we do go with the interpretation that they go to play and then are tossed, then cards like Simon the Zealot (or other cards that protect hand from discard) would not stop Toss.  Only things like Thaddeus would work.

Can we get clarity on this?  Or does someone know a more conclusive thread?

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Thaddeus VS Foreign Spearmen
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 10:46:52 PM »
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Foreign Spearmen - While blocking alone, toss all enhancements that are played this battle. Cannot be interrupted.
Wouldn't FS be targeting the players of the game with his ability rather than any cards?  If so, then Thad's ability wouldn't be protecting from FS at all, and therefore enhs would still be tossed in that battle.

Then there is a second question and that is whether the tossed enhs would have any effect on Thad?  Obviously any GE that Thad tossed would lower FS.  But would it work the other way around?  I would think not.  However I can see someone arguing that unlike EEs that are "played" on ECs (which Thad is protected from), that "tossed" EEs are not actually played so they wouldn't be protected from.  I disagree with that argument though because the "toss" is an "instead" of the "play" and therefore I think it should follow the same rules.

These are my preliminary thoughts.  How does all that sound?

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Thaddeus VS Foreign Spearmen
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 11:09:46 PM »
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Quote
Foreign Spearmen - While blocking alone, toss all enhancements that are played this battle. Cannot be interrupted.
Wouldn't FS be targeting the players of the game with his ability rather than any cards?  If so, then Thad's ability wouldn't be protecting from FS at all, and therefore enhs would still be tossed in that battle.

That was the argument before, but I disagree with the interpretation of the ability.  The ability says:
Quote from: REG 2.0
A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the numbers or special abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement).

While it says that it "allows a player," the source of the ability is still FS.  It would be the same as other abilities that allow "you" to do any action (which just about every ability does, from draw and search to discard and 'instead'), either optional or mandatory.  Abilities can allow actions that are not 'normal' to occur, but the source is always the card from which the SA originates.  If a card is protected from that originating card, the fact that "you" are allowed to do it makes no difference; the protection still stands because it is the card that is 'doing' it.

With Toss, "you" are discarding the enhancement instead and reducing a character.  However, the source of the ability is still FS.  Therefore, if the enhancement is protected from being discarded by FS, then it cannot be Tossed.

As a player, I have no abilities.  The card has the abilities, and in this case, it cannot affect cards protected by Thaddeus, IMO.

 


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