Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If a card said "Look at opponents hand and banish a card. Discard a Hero in battle.", you would complete the banish before they get SI and it would stay banished even when SI is triggered. SI doesn't undo the card, it suspends it right before it removes your character. Anything completed prior to SI stays completed without a negate being involved.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 30, 2017, 08:58:42 PM

If a card said "Look at opponents hand and banish a card. Discard a Hero in battle.", you would complete the banish before they get SI and it would stay banished even when SI is triggered. SI doesn't undo the card, it suspends it right before it removes your character. Anything completed prior to SI stays completed without a negate being involved.

This is how I think SI should work, but there was this thread a few months ago wondering if Foreign Sword can negate The Flood.  The Flood banishes itself before discarding characters in battle, so it would seem Foreign Sword wouldn't be able to negate it (since it isn't a "Negate last" and it doesn't ItB).  But there was Elder support for Foreign Sword being able to negate The Flood.

If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may
still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card
type

Also, in the case of The Flood, the banish and the discard from The Flood are two parts of one ability and happen at the same instant, so SI does trigger and suspend it before either happens. Regardless of if it worked that way or not, a negate during SI would still be able to target it given the entry quoted above.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 30, 2017, 11:57:54 PM

Also, in the case of The Flood, the banish and the discard from The Flood are two parts of one ability and happen at the same instant, so SI does trigger and suspend it before either happens. Regardless of if it worked that way or not, a negate during SI would still be able to target it given the entry quoted above.

The banish is the cost, the discard is the benefit.  They are two separate abilities.  You can't discard unless The Flood has already banished itself.  When SI kicks in, it suspends the ability causing the removal - which is the discard.  The banish isn't causing SI.

Also, as Minister Polarius pointed out, the definition of "card type" is important.  If it means "character", "enhancement", and the like, then Foreign Sword can't target The Flood in SI.

They are separate abilites in a way but timing-wise they are not. You cannot complete the banish without completing the discard; completing the banish would immediately result in the opposing character leaving battle and thus it is suspended before either can happen.

The card type argument is possibly relevant and the more I think about it may have ramifications in other more commonly played scenarios. I'm going to make a thread for it.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 31, 2017, 11:52:02 AM

They are separate abilites in a way but timing-wise they are not. You cannot complete the banish without completing the discard; completing the banish would immediately result in the opposing character leaving battle and thus it is suspended before either can happen.

You can certainly complete the banish without completing the discard.  Playing The Flood against a bulletproof hero like Gideon, or against a NT human that gets their discard "insteaded" by Herod's Temple, does absolutely nothing to The Flood banishing itself.

It's quite simple.  They are two separate abilities.  After reading the first one, there's no SI.  After reading the next one, SI is triggered.

I didn't say you couldn't complete one without the other (All your examples of doing exactly that are completely correct), I said you can't completely one before the other.

SI doesn't say "When your last character is removed from battle" it says "When your last character would be removed from battle". The Flood doesn't say "Banish this then discard everything" it's "Banish this to discard everything". The completion of the banish by definition completes the discard as well. SI is triggered and the card is suspended before either happens.

Yes. Also, if the capture portion of Seize Him does not cause SI, then the rest of the ability completes as normal as well.