Author Topic: TEAMS-Rule Change? (Read 2535 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **on:** January 07, 2016, 12:51:19 PM »

I would like to propose a rule change that in my opinion makes TEAMS a bit more user-friendly. I have never been a fan of the rule that you are restricted from playing dominants that have been previously played for a few reasons. First, it can lead to a forfeiture of turn as a result of a misunderstanding of the rule for TEAMS. I have seen beginners try to play a duplicate dominant, be reminded that they cannot legally play a second set, and throw it immediately into the discard pile. Second, the second set of dominants clog your hand which is inconsistent with how dominants normally functions.

My proposal would help relieve some of the confusion surrounding teams and be more consistent with how dominants function in all other categories. It could be worded however you want but the essence of the rule would allow people to play duplicate dominants anytime.... but to no effect.

Perhaps a rule change so small isn't the best idea right now as you have to retrain everyone's brain, but maybe something to tack onto other TEAMS rule changes/clarifications in the future.

CountFount · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2016, 01:46:34 PM »

Great idea.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2016, 10:33:17 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on January 07, 2016, 12:51:19 PM

the essence of the rule would allow people to play duplicate dominants anytime.... but to no effect.

I don't see any immediate reason this couldn't be a rule. It wouldn't really come up except in TEAMS situations, and wouldn't really change anything there either except for preventing silly mistakes. It seems like a good idea.

kariusvega · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2016, 03:39:39 PM »

my desire with teams is side by side play rather than across from one another for communication purposes and transparency. i like that it goes around the table to give each team an opportunity to react, but i'd really like to be able to know what's in my team mates hand and be close so we can better work together/ask questions and communicate without letting the other team know what we are trying to accomplish. i don't feel like it would change teams in a bad way at all to be able to play better as a team.

as for the dom rule, i can easily understand why, from playing teams at nationals, there is a restriction. considering you can win turn two with the right draw, having Son of God New Jerusalem in two team mates opening hand does kind of eliminate the game all together if there were no dom rule.

kram1138 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2016, 04:12:19 PM »

I think you may have misunderstand the suggestion.The suggested rule simply changes you from not being able to play a second dominant at all to it having no effect if you do play one a second time. The actual gameplay wouldn't change.

kariusvega · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2016, 05:25:35 PM »

so then what is the suggestion? i'm not sure i really understand it at all then lol

what's the difference

kariusvega · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2016, 05:31:30 PM »

okay i think i understand what hobbit is saying by 'forfeiting a turn' since they put it into the discard pile...

honestly there are a lot of times where personally i have felt pretty let down by fellow players because they have said 'since you tried to do this but couldn't, it will cost you' i don't think that has as much to do with the rules as it does with simply being forgiving as a player and allowing someone to actually try to do what they intend rather then making them pay for doing something they didn't intend not knowing they couldn't

for example: everyone who burned their son of god new jerusalems through arrest in gethsemane at nationals 2015 because they didn't know that it protected the lost souls, and then guess what you have to discard your son of god new jerusalem because they did nothing. same thing happened to me in teams when i tried to discard my gates of hell to add a demon from my hand not knowing it could only be from territory. they said well it's nationals and i just felt let down honestly.

i'm sure this kind of stuff happens all the time but does it really have to do so much with the rules or simply being a good sport/forgiving player?

sure there is no rule for 'take backs' but honestly don't you feel ripped off when suddenly you burned a great card in some kind of technicality? i can only imagine the newbs don't take it well and that doesn't seem to be very conducive to growing the society

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** January 09, 2016, 09:41:23 AM »

I'll be honest, I'm not even sure I was entirely aware that players are not allowed to "dump" Dominants in a Teams event the way they can in every other format. Obviously it comes up more often in Teams, especially when two players have partnered with decks that weren't designed to work together.

We're working on an update to the rules for Teams that will hopefully change the way Dominants work for the better. Cards like Glory of the Lord (P) and The Holy Spirit have been released since the current rule set was written and they don't function all that well in Teams.

I'd like to see the changes in place before States/Regionals/Nationals this year but I don't know if it will happen that quickly. This is part of a larger project that will take some time. Once complete we will need Rob's stamp of approval.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 09, 2016, 10:15:42 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2016, 09:41:23 AM

I'll be honest, I'm not even sure I was entirely aware that players are not allowed to "dump" Dominants in a Teams event the way they can in every other format.

What does this--specifically the "the way they can in every other format" portion--mean? How is a player allowed to dump dominants in other formats?

Situation...

We are playing 2 player (T1-2P or T2-2P, I don't think that matters), and I have a single hero in my territory while my opponent has none. The Speed Bump LS is out and active, and I have 11 cards in my hand of which Christian Martyr is the only card I can possibly play . How can I "dump" CM to get my hand down to 10 without either being forced to kill my hero (by putting the card in play) or ending my turn (by discarding CM)?

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2016, 10:55:33 PM »

I think he just means in the case of when you normally couldn't play a dominant (such as having Falling Away and all players have GoYS, or a Lampstand is active) you are still allowed to play it for no effect anytime to get it out of your hand. In your scenario you'd be forced to play CM on your hero or not play it at all. I don't think you can "dump" it in that situation.

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2016, 12:11:42 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 09, 2016, 10:15:42 PM

Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2016, 09:41:23 AM
I'll be honest, I'm not even sure I was entirely aware that players are not allowed to "dump" Dominants in a Teams event the way they can in every other format.
What does this--specifically the "the way they can in every other format" portion--mean? How is a player allowed to dump dominants in other formats?

Situation...

We are playing 2 player (T1-2P or T2-2P, I don't think that matters), and I have a single hero in my territory while my opponent has none. The Speed Bump LS is out and active, and I have 11 cards in my hand of which Christian Martyr is the only card I can possibly play . How can I "dump" CM to get my hand down to 10 without either being forced to kill my hero (by putting the card in play) or ending my turn (by discarding CM)?

Browa nailed it. By "dump" I didn't mean you can just discard them at will, but you are allowed to play them for no effect. In the example you gave if you had NJ instead of CM you could have played that to get your hand to 10 so you could rescue.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2016, 03:21:06 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2016, 11:11:42 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 09, 2016, 09:15:42 PM
Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2016, 08:41:23 AM
I'll be honest, I'm not even sure I was entirely aware that players are not allowed to "dump" Dominants in a Teams event the way they can in every other format.
What does this--specifically the "the way they can in every other format" portion--mean? How is a player allowed to dump dominants in other formats?

Situation...

We are playing 2 player (T1-2P or T2-2P, I don't think that matters), and I have a single hero in my territory while my opponent has none. The Speed Bump LS is out and active, and I have 11 cards in my hand of which Christian Martyr is the only card I can possibly play . How can I "dump" CM to get my hand down to 10 without either being forced to kill my hero (by putting the card in play) or ending my turn (by discarding CM)?

Browa nailed it. By "dump" I didn't mean you can just discard them at will, but you are allowed to play them for no effect. In the example you gave if you had NJ instead of CM you could have played that to get your hand to 10 so you could rescue.

OK. Now that I understand what you mean, I can answer your original question...

The difference between the duplicate dominants case in TEAMS and what you mean by dumping in other formats is that in TEAMS a player is restricted from playing a duplicate dominant*. This is qualitatively different than the case where you can play the dominant but it won't activate (solo NJ example) or cannot target (FA with Lampstands active) so it has no effect.

*

Quote from: ReyZen on September 19, 2009, 12:15:42 AM

Only 1 of each dominant may be played by a TEAM. When they are played they are given to the other TEAM to put into their LOR to remember which have already been played (they do not count as redeemed souls, of course) until the end of the game. Extra dominants may be discarded (ie. to kill CoM), but may not be played. Doubt is also able to be played straight into battle (instead of territory), but does not prohibit adding another EC to battle as well.

**EDIT - sorry, I inadvertently edited your post instead of replying. I was able to restore it in full. ~Gabe (someone take away my mod powers!)

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2016, 10:26:31 AM »

Quote

The difference between the duplicate dominants case in TEAMS and what you mean by dumping in other formats is that in TEAMS a player is restricted from playing a duplicate dominant*. This is qualitatively different than the case where you can play the dominant but it won't activate (solo NJ example) or cannot target (FA with Lampstands active) so it has no effect.

Quote from: ReyZen on September 19, 2009, 01:15:42 AM

Only 1 of each dominant may be played by a TEAM. When they are played they are given to the other TEAM to put into their LOR to remember which have already been played (they do not count as redeemed souls, of course) until the end of the game. Extra dominants may be discarded (ie. to kill CoM), but may not be played. Doubt is also able to be played straight into battle (instead of territory), but does not prohibit adding another EC to battle as well.

Thanks for pointing to that old post. I expect that many people were using that for Teams Rules since the official ones are in an odd, hard to find place (we'd like to change that as part of the project we're working on). I've updated the post you quoted to point to the up to date rules for Team play.

The portion you quoted makes an inaccurate statement about Doubt. Even in Teams, Doubt is not played any differently than the text on the card. That was an "underwoodism" that Rob shot down when he made Teams an official event. Here's what the official rules have to say about Dominant play:

Quote

A team can only collectively play ONE copy of any Dominant card. Once played, that card is displayed in that teams Land of Redemption for verification purposes. Only ONE player can utilize the SOG/NJ combo, not one from each teammate.

Because it indicates "ONE copy" I believe that allows for Doubt to be replayed if it's used, shuffled (or returned to hand) and redrawn. It's still the same copy. We can be sure of that because your deck was checked to be legal and only one copy is allowed per deck. In the same way, if it were somehow possible to get a played Dominant back from the discard pile you could probably replay that Dominant as well.

That does assume that players don't follow the rules to the letter and immediately move Doubt, Glory of the Lord and The Holy Spirit to the Land of Redemption to put them on display.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2016, 11:14:31 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 10, 2016, 10:26:31 AM

Quote
The difference between the duplicate dominants case in TEAMS and what you mean by dumping in other formats is that in TEAMS a player is restricted from playing a duplicate dominant*. This is qualitatively different than the case where you can play the dominant but it won't activate (solo NJ example) or cannot target (FA with Lampstands active) so it has no effect.

*

Quote

A team can only collectively play ONE copy of any Dominant card. Once played, that card is displayed in that teams Land of Redemption for verification purposes. Only ONE player can utilize the SOG/NJ combo, not one from each teammate.

Thanks for the updated rule--can we get the current official rules stickied near the top of some appropriate forum?

Just to be clear, the current official rule still makes the distinction I pointed to. (@Gabe I know you understand this; I am just making sure anyone reading along from home understands that you were discussing a discrepency for playing Doubt--not about whether playign additional copes is restricted.)

it should also be noted that this rule makes The Holy Spirit completely worthless in TEAMS and removes any shred of usefulness from Doubt.

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2016, 02:02:17 PM »

Is physically moving the cards to the opposing Team's LoR really the best way to track which ones have been played already? Could we not just make a checklist that can be included with the Tournament Host materials that lists all current Dominants in 2 columns, 1 for each team, that can be printed/copied multiple times and can be used to track this without changing how the cards are affected in-game? Or something like that?

Something like this: http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Teams-Dominant-Checklist.pdf

There are spaces to write a check or an X next to each dominant, or write the initials/name of the player that plays it (in case the dominant can be re-played by the same player later i.e. Doubt, Holy Spirit, etc.). There's also space to write the team members' names next to Team 1 or Team 2 if you want to keep track of which team is which number. Also if new Dominants are printed it can be easily updated to include them.

The main benefit of this being that the Dominants themselves go to territory, or to discard, or to LoR, or wherever as normal and nothing changes with them gameplay-wise (besides that the other teammate now cannot play another copy).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2016, 03:11:40 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 10, 2016, 10:26:31 AM

Doubt is not played any differently than the text on the card. That was an "underwoodism" that Rob shot down when he made Teams an official event.

Awww, you made up a new word, just for me. I still have good memories of that first unofficial TEAMS event at Nats in Columbus when Doubt very briefly was a useful card (and people even tried to abuse it to make it a CTB card)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2016, 12:45:41 PM »

Checklists would be nice but I think that puts unnecessary obligations on hosts/players. The point of dominants going to LoR is to track the use of dominants with an immediate and finite effect, but to accomplish this purpose they don't have to be literally in your land of Redemption. It would be nice if players where given the option to track dominants however they wanted (pen/paper, pen/print-out, dominants in LoR,...etc). Perhaps the rules governing TEAMS can be clarified to offer a suggestion that used dominants go to LoR for tracking purposes only. And then make it clear that used dominants are literally in whatever location they would go to after being used.

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Author Topic: TEAMS-Rule Change? (Read 2535 times)

TheHobbit13

TEAMS-Rule Change?

CountFount

Re: TEAMS-Rule Change?

Prof Underwood

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kariusvega

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kram1138

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kariusvega

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kariusvega

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Gabe

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EmJayBee83

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browarod

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Gabe

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EmJayBee83

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Gabe

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EmJayBee83

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browarod

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Prof Underwood

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TheHobbit13

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