Cactus Game Design Message Boards

The key here is actually that it's a Battle Challenge, which can only be made when your opponent has no lost souls to rescue. Goliath certainly isn't going to make a rescue attempt, and I'm not sure we should make a whole 'nother type of battle for...one card. Goliath making a battle challenge just makes sense. And of course you can't make more than one battle per turn.

If they have no lost souls, you can taunt.

So why base a special ability on a gamestate that will never really happen? I mean I understand that it does happen, actually more than I would like. It just seems like a really good idea of an ability wasted on a board position that is even looked down upon in this game, hence all the recent soul gen cards.

I agree that Taunting should be more possible. I don't understand why an evil character wouldn't be able to taunt if an opponent has Lost Souls. Goliath laughs at puny souls! I think it would be a boon for the game if that were changed. Also, how fun would it be to make a Rescue and a Taunt in the same turn? That might even be enough change, because you could rescue an opponent's soul and then Taunt in the same turn, making it more likely that the Taunt ability would be used.

What's so OP about letting Goliath taunt with Wrath? ET can already do that with AoCP, doesn't need a specific Artifact up to make it CBN, doesn't need a specific weapon to play it, and can get a LS out of the bargain as well. Goliath's Taunt is another in a long string of "things that were over-balanced into oblivion" on the Evil side, while Good (and especially Speed) keeps getting 2-brigade, 3-ability CBN characters with great identifiers. Good's supposed to be better than Evil, not unaffected by it.

What I don't understand about Taunt is what does "your opponent has no lost souls to rescue" mean? Do Lost Souls in sites count? Does the female only count? Why should Goliath care whether or not there are lost souls in their territory since he can't rescue them anyway.

I thought was that if you go in with a hero that has no access to a lost soul it is a battle challenge, so why are the rules different with Goliath? He can never rescue a lost soul so any battle performed by him would be a battle challenge.

Maybe I'm over thinking this, especially since the only time I have had taunt used against me it was majorly in my favor.

All I ask is that many options are considered during R&D and a complete regression test. 

That's not true though. Lets say my opponent has a lost soul in a say gold site and a female only not in a site, lets say I have a character with a site access ability and a female hero and Gabriel, does that stop me from attacking (as a battle challenge) with Gabriel because I could make a rescue attempt with either of my other heroes? I wouldn't think so.

Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?

No, it doesn't stop you from attacking, but when you attack you are making a rescue attempt, not a battle challenge.

Let me put it this way. There's an ordinary lost soul. You rescue with Shamgar. The block with Gomer banded to Uzzah, and use Uzzah's ability. Does Uzzah's ability change the battle into a Battle Challenge because the lost souls are protected?
No. Death of Unrighteous would because it takes all your lost souls out of play, but as long as there are souls, whether protected or not, it's a rescue attempt.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 04, 2012, 06:18:16 PM

That's not true though. Lets say my opponent has a lost soul in a say gold site and a female only not in a site, lets say I have a character with a site access ability and a female hero and Gabriel, does that stop me from attacking (as a battle challenge) with Gabriel because I could make a rescue attempt with either of my other heroes? I wouldn't think so.

Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?

No, it doesn't stop you from attacking, but when you attack you are making a rescue attempt, not a battle challenge.

Let me put it this way. There's an ordinary lost soul. You rescue with Shamgar. The block with Gomer banded to Uzzah, and use Uzzah's ability. Does Uzzah's ability change the battle into a Battle Challenge because the lost souls are protected?
No. Death of Unrighteous would because it takes all your lost souls out of play, but as long as there are souls, whether protected or not, it's a rescue attempt.

There have been rulings at several tournaments I have been to that say otherwise. Any battle where you are not able to get a soul after the battle is a Battle Challenge. It doesn't matter if that is from DoU, Uzzy or Site Protection. If the effect goes through, it's a Battle Challenge.
Or at least that is the understanding I have gotten by playing in Wisconsin and Minnesota State as well as most tournaments I've gone too.

Although its given that most of the Protect cards end the battle, so either way it wouldn't make much of a difference, but that's my understanding of the rules.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 04, 2012, 06:18:16 PM

Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?

Because Rob decided Taunt should only work when there is no Lost Soul in play and the people testing taunt agreed. 

That I can get behind since Taunt is essentially a keyword ability in the identifier slot, but don't try to pass it off as "only when you can make a battle challenge." Because according to this there are lots of times when you can make a battle challenge but can't taunt.

If that was the case, then Every Man's Sword would prevent War Officer from entering battle when there's a lost soul in a site, but it doesn't. Those rulings you've received contradict the REG's definition of Battle Challenge, as well as past rulings such as EMS versus War Officer.

Every Man's Sword is a card that is fairly awkward due to the fact that there is really no consistent way to make it work the way have chosen without giving it its own special rules (at least if I remember correctly). For some reason it was decided that it shouldn't stop characters like War Officer and every attempt to make that work has basically been silly, because the way I understand it, either the type of battle isn't determined until after the heroes ability completes (in which case Every Man's Sword does nothing because no battle starts as a battle challenge) or it is determined before and it Every Man's Sword should stop War Officer, but it has been ruled otherwise.

So why base a special ability on a gamestate that will never really happen? I mean I understand that it does happen, actually more than I would like. It just seems like a really good idea of an ability wasted on a board position that is even looked down upon in this game, hence all the recent soul gen cards.

BAM NAILED IT! One of the most logical things said on the boards in a long time. I still have no clue why any one would put Taunt cards into their deck with this meta heck I wouldnt have put these in my deck 10 years ago if they came out. The only reason Goliath is being used is because... well he is Goliath just read his sa lol

Because Rob decided Taunt should only work when there is no Lost Soul in play and the people testing taunt agreed. 

This card is one of the only times the playtesters actually were overly cautious about something I mean sure at the time it looked like taunt might cause crazy ccccccccccccccccombo breakers and what not. But with that clearly not being the case and with how the meta is going I think we should be open to changing it so that taunt functions as a standard battle challenge but evil.

If that was the case, then Every Man's Sword would prevent War Officer from entering battle when there's a lost soul in a site, but it doesn't. Those rulings you've received contradict the REG's definition of Battle Challenge, as well as past rulings such as EMS versus War Officer.

No, it doesn't because the Character's effect doesn't make it a battle challenge. The one thing you forget is that Character abilities have ways to determine Rescue Attempts and Battle Challenges. It's the same thing for putting a Site in battle. If you don't have a way to rescue a soul, then it's a Battle Challenge. If you can rescue a soul, then it's a Rescue attempt. That can change during the battle as well. If you lose the ability to rescue a soul by a card effect that still makes the battle now a Battle Challenge regardless of the Lost Souls out.