Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on April 17, 2011, 09:06:08 PM
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The FBTN LS (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/luke1910di.htm) is in play. I block with The Amalekite's Slave (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/theamalekitesslavera.htm) and use it's ability to add an Evil Character to battle.
Does the FBTN LS negate TAS once it becomes a LS?
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:D I knew there was a reason that I liked that card.
I think that it does.
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It better not otherwise that is a loop. I don't know if this is a rule, but you could say that characters have no abilities when they are treated as lost souls.
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Seems like it would just make it a non-SA'd LS. Seems like it would mess up Peter though when he's captured.
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Ignore my last post, I don't think I had my logic quite right there.... I still don't think it creates a loop per-say.
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BTN lost soul negates lost souls. TAS is a character. TAS ability activates when he is a character. A hero that is taken prisoner is treated as a captured hero, technically a lost soul, but not the exact same thing. I would say TAS ability is his SA as an EC, not a lost soul. It would make sense for the btn lost soul to not negate his ability, because he is an EC, not a lost soul. But at the same time he is a lost soul, so I can see this going either way. But I would argue that a character being treated as a lost soul is just that, it can be redeemed, or returned, but it has no ability.
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I could see this work as RDT or Mr.H explain. That's why I posted the question. Both seem logical. I have not dug through the REG but I'm fairly familiar with it and I don't know of anything that explains this in my mind.
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Regardless, it wouldn't be a loop if FBTN soul negated TAS.
He would just go back to battle with his SA negated, and the exchanged EC would go back.
Thats my take.
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Right - That was my logic from earlier - But I'm not 100% sold on it.
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Well, I can see solid arguments for the following situations:
1. TAS is negated, the exchanged EC goes back into the deck, and TAS is left in battle.
2. TAS is not negated and all continues as normal.
No loop would happen, as that would require TAS's ability re-activating.
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Negate LS is in play. I rescue with Gabriel and discard an enhancement from your deck. You block and play a card to capture Gabriel. Does his ability get negated and the enhancement go back to your deck? Intuitively I say no, ergo the same applies to TAS.
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I'd say captured characters don't have abilities, but then again, we have Peter. (Though he's triggered. Would that mean his ability isn't active after the trigger [capture])?
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Negate LS is in play. I rescue with Gabriel and discard an enhancement from your deck. You block and play a card to capture Gabriel. Does his ability get negated and the enhancement go back to your deck? Intuitively I say no, ergo the same applies to TAS.
+1. If for no other reason than that would be needlessly complicated.
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Also, the way FBTN is worded prevents it from effecting 2-line and 3-line (or so I have been told). I would think the same logic that protects those cards would protect captured characters.
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Negate LS is in play. I rescue with Gabriel and discard an enhancement from your deck. You block and play a card to capture Gabriel. Does his ability get negated and the enhancement go back to your deck? Intuitively I say no, ergo the same applies to TAS.
I disagree, its the same phase and the character once captured gains 2 new card types (captured character, LS) and the LS instant SA is negated during that phase and the searched and discarded enhancement is returned to the draw pile. seems logical and consistant to me unless there are special restrictions to the way captured characters are played in these scenerios aka captured characters and weapons.
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Also, the way FBTN is worded prevents it from effecting 2-line and 3-line (or so I have been told). I would think the same logic that protects those cards would protect captured characters.
That is because the souls abilities are identifiers, otherwise they would be negated.
I don't see why there is no loop
Activate tas-His ability is negated goes back into battle where the lost soul is not targeting him, activates... lather rinse repeat.
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Once an ability is negated, can it be activated again?
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Once an ability is negated, can it be activated again?
If I negate AoC (not the promo) and then later my negate is negated it reactivates. Although the difference here is that the ability to target it that is changing rather than the negate being negated.
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So what's the verdict? Ruling going to the Elders? It's about to be big tourney time and I can see this one coming up a lot.
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I don't understand how there is a loop. When TAS captures itself it is an evil character, and then it turns itself into a ls. There is no rule that I know of that says when a character is captured they keep their ability. So why would a self captured TAS have an ability for the FBTN lost soul to negate?
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I don't understand how there is a loop. When TAS captures itself it is an evil character, and then it turns itself into a ls. There is no rule that I know of that says when a character is captured they keep their ability. So why would a self captured TAS have an ability for the FBTN lost soul to negate?
I agree, it would make the most sense for captured characters to loose their SA. Problem: Peter.
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I would say(And I am probably wrong) that peter's SA sets up a triggered ability that lasts until he returns. But that feels awkward. Lets just errata peter :)
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I mentioned that earlier, but I'm no elder.
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I agree that captured characters dont have an ability and in the Peter situation that he does set up a trigger.
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FYI - This card is really messed up.
The Amalekites' Slave (RA)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold/Brown • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If blocking, you may place this card in opponent's Land of Bondage to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add it to the battle. • Play As: If blocking, you may choose to have your opponent capture this card to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add to battle the Evil Character. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Egypt • Verse: I Samuel 30:13
First, as originally written there's no indication it ever becomes a lost soul.
Second, the play-as gives your opponent the ability to search your deck.
Third, it is my belief that "lost soul cards" <> "cards treated as lost souls".
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FYI - This card is really messed up.
The Amalekites' Slave (RA)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold/Brown • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If blocking, you may place this card in opponent's Land of Bondage to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add it to the battle. • Play As: If blocking, you may choose to have your opponent capture this card to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add to battle the Evil Character. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Egypt • Verse: I Samuel 30:13
First, as originally written there's no indication it ever becomes a lost soul.
Second, the play-as gives your opponent the ability to search your deck.
Third, it is my belief that "lost soul cards" <> "cards treated as lost souls".
I agree with all of those points (maybe not the second one, but the wording is definitely poor enough for someone to come to that conclusion). The Play As should be rewritten, as your opponent is certainly not the one doing the capturing, you are. It's like Dungeon of Malchiah, I capture, and place in your LoB.
As to the third point, if a card said "place a Lost Soul card on your deck" then I would agree that you couldn't target a captured character. However, I don't know what that has to do with the question at hand. The question is whether or not captured characters retain their abilities. I agree that is something we should figure out; I will post about it on the other side of the boards.
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Sorry, I thought my third point was fairly obvious. The FBTN LS targets "Lost Soul cards". I feel there is a distinction between "lost soul cards" and "captured characters that are treated as lost souls". As such, the FBTN LS cannot target TAS.
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Sorry, I thought my third point was fairly obvious. The FBTN LS targets "Lost Soul cards". I feel there is a distinction between "lost soul cards" and "captured characters that are treated as lost souls". As such, the FBTN LS cannot target TAS.
Ah. Good point. Then I agree with you entirely. Weird how that happens sometimes.
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Problem: Peter.
His ability specifically states that though. His ability, once triggered, is like an ongoing ability. There are cards that kind of go against the normal rules, which is fine, but I feel like lost soul cards, and characters being treated as lost souls are two different things.