Author Topic: Tabletalk? (Read 4080 times)

SirNobody · « **on:** November 03, 2013, 06:23:10 PM »

Hey,

Multiplayer game with three players. Player 1 has looked at both player 2 and player 3's hands. Player 2 has Grapes of Wrath, Player 3 has Angel of the Lord. Player 3 has four redeemed souls Player 1 and Player 2 have 3. Player 3 attacks Player 1.

As player 1 I cannot stop the rescue by myself. But I can block allowing Player 2's Grapes to stop the rescue. But if player 2 doesn't play Grapes right away player 3 will play Angel of the Lord and the game will be lost.

Would it be acceptable for me to inform the table that "I cannot stop the rescue" informing player 2 implicitly that when I block it is so that he can play Grapes? Or would that be considered tabletalk?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Isildur · « **Reply #1 on:** November 03, 2013, 09:09:58 PM »

Imo table talk is kosher as long as you are not trying to manipulate another player for your personal gain. So stating facts like you did is all cool.

Thats my

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #2 on:** November 03, 2013, 11:40:07 PM »

Stating game states is smart

Drrek · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2013, 01:31:06 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on November 03, 2013, 11:40:07 PM

Stating game states is smart

Although to be fair, stating "I cannot stop the rescue," is not stating a game state that the person could be aware of unless you said it (because they don't know what's in your hand, unless of course you have no hand), so I can definitely see the argument for disallowing this case.

I don't care one way or the other for this issue (actually I'm totally in favor of allowing lot's of table talking. I personally think its a skill if you can talk people into doing what you want in a multiplayer game, but I don't really care about multi anyway), so it doesn't matter to me, just saying why someone might argue to disallow this.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2013, 04:29:42 AM »

Quote from: Drrek on November 04, 2013, 01:31:06 AM

Although to be fair, stating "I cannot stop the rescue," is not stating a game state that the person could be aware of unless you said it

But you are also telling everyone at the table the same thing, so that seems fair to me. Sure you are telling your one opponent that they better play Grapes quickly. But you are also telling your other opponent that they better play AotL quickly. So it still becomes a race, and that seems fair to me.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »

The way I see it, the only thing that should not be allowed is you giving another player direct strategy hints. I.e. "you should do this [specific action] because of this [specific reason]" etc. Saying things like "well, I can't stop the rescue, but we'll see what happens" is legit, but saying "I'm going to put my guy in battle, so you should play Grapes as soon as I do before anyone has a chance to play AotL" is not. It might seem like a fine line in some cases, but I think that using creative ways to "state the game state" is perfectly legit.

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2013, 05:11:09 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on November 04, 2013, 02:50:02 PM

The way I see it, the only thing that should not be allowed is you giving another player direct strategy hints. I.e. "you should do this [specific action] because of this [specific reason]" etc. Saying things like "well, I can't stop the rescue, but we'll see what happens" is legit, but saying "I'm going to put my guy in battle, so you should play Grapes as soon as I do before anyone has a chance to play AotL" is not. It might seem like a fine line in some cases, but I think that using creative ways to "state the game state" is perfectly legit.

On those lines, I was in a multi game the other day, and someone pushed in a random EC vs a James SoA - Thad band. Confused opponent stared at it for a second, and I had Grapes in my hand. At that time, I had ways to get rid of him for later rescues (much more fun too...which is why I hesitated, I'm a sucker for the fun play), but I knew exactly what was intended. Had he said "It'd be a shame if a Grapes were to blow you away right now..." that'd be an issue. But he didn't, I played Grapes, we all lived happily ever after.

SirNobody · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2013, 07:32:00 PM »

Hey,

By stating I can't stop him I am giving my opponents knowledge of my hand that only I am supposed to know. If it's okay for me to tell them that, is it okay for me to state things about the content of an opponent's hand that I look at? What's the difference?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Praeceps · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2013, 07:46:48 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on November 04, 2013, 07:32:00 PM

Hey,

By stating I can't stop him I am giving my opponents knowledge of my hand that only I am supposed to know. If it's okay for me to tell them that, is it okay for me to state things about the content of an opponent's hand that I look at? What's the difference?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The difference is that by revealing the contents of your own hand the only person you are taking advantage of is yourself. If you were to say player 3 has AotL so play your Grapes, that's revealing information about someone else's hand that you have no right to reveal. You want to tell the table the contents of your hand, that's your right, but you shouldn't be allowed to reveal the contents of someone else's hand.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2013, 09:23:28 AM »

Quote from: Praeceps on November 04, 2013, 07:46:48 PM

You want to tell the table the contents of your hand, that's your right, but you shouldn't be allowed to reveal the contents of someone else's hand.

This is actually not correct. You are not allowed to reveal your hand unless a SA says you can. Revealing the contents verbally should follow the same rule.

We have always allowed people to say something like, "I'm about to give up a lost soul," in a multiplayer game, as a courtesy to players who might want to play a dominant. Anything else would be inappropriate, in my opinion. You can allow an opportunity without coaxing other players. Allowing more tabletalk like this will lead to abuse, as players try to intimidate other players. I personally find it repulsive when older players intimidate younger players.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2013, 04:46:51 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 05, 2013, 09:23:28 AM

This is actually not correct. You are not allowed to reveal your hand unless a SA says you can. Revealing the contents verbally should follow the same rule.

While I agree you shouldn't be revealing your hand, I believe the only rule that relates to this is actually in Teams, where if you show a card (outside of a Reveal SA), you must show all players, not just your teammate.

Quote from: Tournament Guide

If you choose to reveal a card or cards from your hand it must be universal disclosure.

The implication there is that you can always reveal cards in Redemption, and this establishes limitations. I'm not sure that there is an actual 'rule' regarding it otherwise, even though I agree with your sentiment.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2013, 05:46:23 PM »

As the person who came up with the ruleset for TEAMS, I can assure you that I came up with that rule independently of any hand revealing rules in any other category. So I wouldn't assume that just because that is the rule in TEAMS that it also applies to other categories.

At the same time, I think that Jordan's suggestion of "I can't stop the rescue" was just another way of saying YMT's statement of "I'm about to give up a LS". So actually I don't think that anyone's actually disagreeing here. We're just saying the same thing with slightly different words.

STAMP · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2013, 08:05:35 PM »

When talking one must understand the language of the subject. May we get these added to the REG index?

SUBJECT	LANGUAGE RESPONSE
Minnesota table	"I can't stop the rescue"
Florida table	"I'm about to give up a LS"
Oregon table	"Going once! Going twice!..."
Wisconsin table	"Irish potato is now Boiled!"
Northeast table	"I'm choosing not to stop him"
French table	"Je renonce."
German table	"Berlin ist verloren!"
British table	"I'm knackered!"
Australian table	"If a bloke is bottling his blood's worth, he can give it a burl."

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2013, 08:27:45 PM »

Is lying or deceiving against the rules?

For example, I state "I have no more enhancements. Can anybody help block or should I give up the lost soul?" is a perfectly valid statement of the gamestate (though perhaps revealing a statement about your hand). However if you have a dominant block in your hand, you are implying that you cannot block the rescue attempt, you just don't say it. Because of Urim and Thummim, you know that your opponents can indeed help by playing whatever. Is it wrong to manipulate them into wasting their dominants, or strategic gameplay so you can make a rescue later on?

I ask this because you cannot assume your opponent is telling the truth unless lying and deceiving is strictly prohibited (which seems a little silly). Tabletalk statements revealing your own hand should be allowed. Mind games are the best.

Isildur · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2013, 12:42:04 AM »

Quote from: Westy on November 05, 2013, 08:27:45 PM

For example, I state "I have no more enhancements. Can anybody help block or should I give up the lost soul?" is a perfectly valid statement of the gamestate (though perhaps revealing a statement about your hand). However if you have a dominant block in your hand, you are implying that you cannot block the rescue attempt, you just don't say it. Because of Urim and Thummim, you know that your opponents can indeed help by playing whatever. Is it wrong to manipulate them into wasting their dominants, or strategic gameplay so you can make a rescue later on?

I think thats valid.

TheMarti · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2013, 01:53:57 AM »

I have been following this thread, but the fact that you even asked that question on a forum for a Christian game makes me a bit upset. Are there rules against lying and deceiving? No. Is it ethical, especially in a Christian context? Absolutely NOT. Of course, I know that I've heard of cases where people have, especially at higher level tournaments, and that's not okay.

And also, I've always assumed that saying "I can't block" or "I can't do anything" was a way to pass your own initiative, since we've have gotten so picky about that in recent years (addition of "special initiative" and such). It's not really "tabletalk."

Just my two cents.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2013, 08:51:44 AM »

Of course, in teams, you can just use code words the your partner, and your opponents still won't know what you're saying.

"Irish potato is now Boiled!"

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2013, 10:17:52 AM »

I thought all tabletalk was allowed in TEAMS? I was telling my opponent everything I saw...

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2013, 03:13:08 PM »

Just say "I'm choosing not to stop him". No knowledge given, problem fixed.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2013, 05:26:22 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on November 06, 2013, 10:17:52 AM

I thought all tabletalk was allowed in TEAMS? I was telling my opponent everything I saw...

Tabletalk is totally allowed in TEAMS (as long as it's in English). That's part of the fun of TEAMS, and also why this whole discussion doesn't have to happen about that event

Also, thanks for the humorous post there STAMP with all the different cultures. Good to be prepared

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #20 on:** November 06, 2013, 10:16:16 PM »

Quote from: The Marti on November 06, 2013, 01:53:57 AM

I have been following this thread, but the fact that you even asked that question on a forum for a Christian game makes me a bit upset. Are there rules against lying and deceiving? No. Is it ethical, especially in a Christian context? Absolutely NOT. Of course, I know that I've heard of cases where people have, especially at higher level tournaments, and that's not okay.

We have a thread dedicated to Diplomacy, a game full of lying, deceiving, and betrayal.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2013, 10:43:35 PM »

Quote from: Westy on November 06, 2013, 10:16:16 PM

Quote from: The Marti on November 06, 2013, 01:53:57 AM
I have been following this thread, but the fact that you even asked that question on a forum for a Christian game makes me a bit upset. Are there rules against lying and deceiving? No. Is it ethical, especially in a Christian context? Absolutely NOT. Of course, I know that I've heard of cases where people have, especially at higher level tournaments, and that's not okay.
We have a thread dedicated to Diplomacy, a game full of lying, deceiving, and betrayal.

And when I said that, no one cared, and one person suggested that not telling the whole truth was ok.

TheMarti · « **Reply #22 on:** November 06, 2013, 11:09:14 PM »

I didn't pay attention to that thread (I don't normally pay attention to those things) but that's kind of a bother too...

Isildur · « **Reply #23 on:** November 07, 2013, 02:37:08 AM »

Quote from: Westy on November 06, 2013, 10:16:16 PM

Quote from: The Marti on November 06, 2013, 01:53:57 AM
I have been following this thread, but the fact that you even asked that question on a forum for a Christian game makes me a bit upset. Are there rules against lying and deceiving? No. Is it ethical, especially in a Christian context? Absolutely NOT. Of course, I know that I've heard of cases where people have, especially at higher level tournaments, and that's not okay.
We have a thread dedicated to Diplomacy, a game full of lying, deceiving, and betrayal.

You will also find in that thread that you dont need to do any form of lying to be successful. A number of us are doing quite peachy in our current game and havnt lied.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** November 07, 2013, 08:30:17 AM »

Quote from: Isildur on November 07, 2013, 02:37:08 AM

Quote from: Westy on November 06, 2013, 10:16:16 PM
Quote from: The Marti on November 06, 2013, 01:53:57 AM
I have been following this thread, but the fact that you even asked that question on a forum for a Christian game makes me a bit upset. Are there rules against lying and deceiving? No. Is it ethical, especially in a Christian context? Absolutely NOT. Of course, I know that I've heard of cases where people have, especially at higher level tournaments, and that's not okay.
We have a thread dedicated to Diplomacy, a game full of lying, deceiving, and betrayal.
You will also find in that thread that you dont need to do any form of lying to be successful. A number of us are doing quite peachy in our current game and havnt lied.

You don't need to technically lie in Redemption either. You are deceiving though.

News:

Author Topic: Tabletalk? (Read 4080 times)

Warrior_Monk

TheMarti

Warrior_Monk

TheMarti

Warrior_Monk