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Strife - Withdraw all but one Hero.

Does Strife apply to the entire field of battle or just one battle presently taking place?

SA always default to the "current battle" unless they specify otherwise.

I thought the rule was cards default to "in play" unless they specify otherwise. If the "current battle" rule is correct than, for example, why can Angel of the Lord discard a character in a territory while a battle is happening?

More directly related to the main question of this thread: Can Christian Martyr be used to target a hero in a main battle while a side battle is occurring? If no, then why not? If yes, then why shouldn't Strife be ruled the same way?

The cards in the main battle are (for most side battles) still in play, right? Like If Wrath of Satan was played in a side battle the heroes in the main battle would end up discarded as well, wouldn't they? Strife doesn't have any wording that indicates "current battle" or anything so I'm confused as to why it wouldn't impact all heroes.

There is a main difference: AotL can target outside of battle, as can CM and Wrath.  Because Strife is a withdraw ability, it specifically targets battle.  By default, cards that target battle only target the current battle unless they have the term "field of battle" in there.

If an ability can target cards that are in play, they can target any card in any battle as well (unless that battle is set-aside...).  If an ability can only target cards in a battle, they can only target cards in the current battle unless they target "field of play".

Hey,

Quote from: JDS on June 29, 2013, 11:14:15 PM

Does Strife apply to the entire field of battle or just one battle presently taking place?

It applies to the entire field of battle.

Quote from: REG:Withdraw.Default Conditions

Targets must be in the field of battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I did some more research, and while I disagree with the application and end result, it does appear that this is within the rules.  Just like a "discard a XYZ" could target something in the main battle, so too can Strife target all heroes in all battles, simply because of that (new?) clause in Withdraw and the fact that the card does not say "in battle".  I see possibility for abuse, but it should be limited enough to not cause an issue.

Can we get more Elder confirmation of this situation?  Particularly, this is a major question because it would affect all cards with Withdraw that don't have the words "in battle".

I agree that this seems "new." Why would "withdraw" abilities have a default clause like that, when other abilities do not? Or have all abilities been given a similar clause? That seems unusual for there to be that clause. It certainly makes ruling decisions more difficult to have special exceptions to certain abilities. I thought we were trying to simplify abilities with more consistent defaults.

Yeah, I would think that the intention would be to have the default be "In battle", because the whole point of a default is to have a condition where one is not otherwise noted.  If it were to affect the whole field of battle, it should say so.  Otherwise, it should only affect the current battle.  I do not think that this rule was in the old rules in any form, and it is changes like this (in a 143 page document...) that will go missed if intended but not announced.  Not the first case of it, either.

Also, for reference, all current Withdraw abilities have the terms "from battle," "in battle," or otherwise mention "battle" except: Strife, Herod Philip II, Controlling Demon (Ap), Herod the Great, Pushed Back, Saul's Javelin, Sheba, and The Serpent.  My question is whether some of those cards that mention "banded into battle" like Desertion would be part of this group or target only "in battle" characters.

Also, I need to mention that YMT quoted my post and used the words "I agree" to start his reply...I'm not seeing any flying pork around, so I'm a little worried 

Quote from: Redoubter on June 30, 2013, 04:18:10 PM

Just like a "discard a XYZ" could target something in the main battle, so too can Strife target all heroes in all battles, simply because of that (new?) clause in Withdraw and the fact that the card does not say "in battle".

I agree that this seems "new." Why would "withdraw" abilities have a default clause like that, when other abilities do not? Or have all abilities been given a similar clause? That seems unusual for there to be that clause. It certainly makes ruling decisions more difficult to have special exceptions to certain abilities. I thought we were trying to simplify abilities with more consistent defaults.

Withdraw abilities have a default clause of in the "field of battle" so that they don't have to say "in battle" or "from battle" all of the time. Characters cannot "withdraw" from territory, hand, deck, etc., which is why the default is there. I suppose it could have been "in battle", but it certainly doesn't have to be. I don't know of any abilities whose targets have to be "in battle" either. I don't see it as a change, but rather as an unnoticed effect due to it rarely mattering. I can't say for sure that the clause was in there before or not the way it was, but most of the "new REG" is just a reformatted version of the old version with the new abilities and definitions of abilities added in. Thus, I wouldn't be surpirsed if it was always the way it is there now, but it just didn't matter. It will matter more now, since Strife is a dominant, but I've only seen two of the cards Redoubter listed in non-BD decks, and the distinction between battle and field of battle could rarely matter for either of the two Herods. Perhaps this new revelation will increase the value of Strife as a legitimate choice for a dominant, but I somewhat doubt it.

Prof A, what about the other question?  Certain cards mention that they withdraw characters that "banded into battle" or something similar.  Would that only be able to target the current battle, since the condition for targeting seems to be limited to current battle, not field of battle?

Yes. Anytime the word "battle" is mentioned without "Field of" before it, it refers only to the current battle.

You don't, but it does work.

Quote from: JDS on July 01, 2013, 05:52:03 PM

So what's the answer? I'm trying to figure out if I want to use Strife with Rehoboam.

The answer is that it does work. The question then becomes is it effective enough to warrant a dominant slot. But I am glad that someone found a use for Strife outside of HAII.

Well there's always using it to give yourself initiative on offense, but yeah, not a very strong dom.

So what's the answer? I'm trying to figure out if I want to use Strife with Rehoboam.

just remember Rehoboam only targets territory, not battle.