Author Topic: Stoic Philosophers + Arrest in Gethsemane (Read 8984 times)

Red · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2015, 11:54:02 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 03, 2015, 11:36:50 AM

i agree with Kirk. i think i'm more surprised so few people in top cut found the time to negate arrest and get at least a couple of lost souls with their sog nj lol it doesn't seem that hard to negate honestly. i mean ehud can choose the blocker grab king of tyrus which negates it right? moses negates it sog nj, captain tsa daniel i mean how many more options do you need to negate it just to play sog nj it's not like it really renders sog nj useless.. all that said i don't feel like this is broken at all i don't even feel like John's deck is op i just feel like he made very wise decisions utilizing not just a combo but combinations, which arrest wasn't even added as a part of the deck until the morning of T1-2P, just to show you his skill level and how far out of the meta he was playing to exploit one very important part of the game: site access.

all the more respect to John for being very well played and well thought out. he put in work for this win it is not because he is a playtester or has some kind of insiders info other than Gabe as far as i can tell no one, not even he, thought about this combo until the morning of T1-2P which is pretty boss

Holy of Holies prevented it from being negated.

Gabe · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:03:51 PM »

So many topics here... Where to start...

@YMT - You have some valid points. I always appreciate your perspective. Please know that it will be taken into consideration as we (the elders) consider what, if anything, needs to change with the AiG ruling. FTR, after the fact, not all the elders who were present agreed that the ruling was completely accurate when it was discussed later. Those given the authority to judge that day gave a correct ruling by their interpretation. They have my complete support on the decision they made, even if I don't entirely share the same perspective.

We are putting finishing tweaks on the REG update. We can include anything related to AiG if it's needed.

@Kirk - I PM'd you.

@AiG in John's deck - I've played AiG before in a deck that attempted to remove an opposing SoG before it's played. I was aware of it's strength against angels. John also had AiG in the original pool of cards he considered for his deck. Unlike many players, neither of us were unaware of the power of this card.

I was PM'd about a combo which involved more than just AiG and Stoic. Did that play a part in suggesting it for John's deck? Probably, but it's hard to tell. It had AiG more at the forefront of my mind than it would have been otherwise. But neither John or I "stole" the combo as it was presented and used it. Props to JMHartz for coming up with the amazing combo and having a small part in the Nats winning deck!

@All who are concerned with elders playing in Nationals - I know there are multiple people who share a concern, and some who don't have a problem with it. This is an interesting and valid topic to discuss. It's something I've tossed around on more than one occasion. Expect an article on Land of Redemption followed by a community poll and discussion on the boards. Ultimately only Mr. Rob Anderson has the final say on this matter unless an elder has a personal conviction they choose to follow.

@Stopping the Stoic AiG combo - It worked as well as it did in John's deck because he already had all the pieces to stop several of the commonly played counters. Abe's Kid? He has DD. FBTN guy? He has HoH in a Temple. Grail + removal? Timing has to be precise and he has Shrine in Areo to pull it out again. All those are valid counters and John won't always have what he needs to stop them. I'm just saying that they aren't a guarantee. Crown of Thorns is the best option I've heard so far, followed by Ehud/Jair/Asahel + Cov with Adam (who plays that?).

The Guardian · « **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:11:17 PM »

Quote

followed by Ehud/Jael/Asahel + Cov with Adam (who plays that?).

I do!

In T2...

Quote

Props to JMHartz for coming up with the amazing combo and having a small part in the Nats winning deck!

Agreed...the combo was a part of my second T2 deck...I didn't end up using that deck because I didn't have any chance to test how the combo would best be utilized within a deck I already had built, but it's a very strong combo.

kariusvega · « **Reply #28 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:17:52 PM »

Justin does amazing things with Covenant with Adam

I think it's amazing still that John was undefeated except in one game with Martin, who is a fantastic player. He said his Foreign Sword was getting the job done well. It's such a shovel lol I was extremely surprised you didn't grab Foreign Sword with Soldier's Prayer in that game we played Justin it was my biggest fear haha so cool that Martin's deck still holds up so well when he won with it 3 years ago

we were joking about how there have been cards made just for him

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:20:15 PM »

Thanks, Gabe.

I will now present my disclaimers:

1.) John Early rocks the universe and deserves to be our Champion. He will now be put on permanent display at the Cactus warehouse in North Carolina.

2.) I do not think that playtesters have an unfair advantage at tournaments. The reason that they were chosen for their roles in the community is because of their inherent awesomeness.

3.) People that make combos that dominate tournaments should be applauded for their ingenuity, since they might otherwise become hackers and a threat to National Security.

4.) I find it ironic that Crown of Thorns can be used to get Son of God through this combo.

Redoubter · « **Reply #30 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:38:53 PM »

Alright, I'm posting here since I was the Day 2 judge.

For those who are accusing a playtester of 'gaming the system' (particularly one who should know better), that has been addressed somewhat but it should also be said that the judging for that day was left to me.

I was never approached prior to the tournament and asked whether that combo would work (and how could I, John added that card that morning...). John had no idea whether I would rule in favor of his play, particularly because he and I almost never see things the same way intuitively at first. In fact, I expect he anticipated I would rule against him in the end even though he believed it to be correct per the rules.

While I was the main judge, I am also a very new player (comparatively) among that group. That is why Jordan and Justin Alstad were my 'back-up' for the T1-2P judging, as they were in T2-2P at the time (just like John and Gabe were my 'back-up' for any questions that came out of T2-2P). While I knew that AiG could be protected from itself per the rules (it is in the current entry in the REG), my initial reaction was that AiG would be discarded in any upkeep on-or-after the third once the protection ends, but I was not confident in that. Jordan and Justin know our ability wordings much better than I do, and Jordan is also our 'wordsmith', and so I went to them. We discussed this for over 5 minutes, and the consensus was that the combo John presented worked.

John could have no official say in the ruling of this combo because it was his deck, nor could he have pre-knowledge because only he and Gabe knew the card was added. Gabe was playing the category so he was not asked his opinion either. Only those without any skin the game who are qualified to judge consulted on this decision. We came to the ruling we felt was correct per the rules, even if it is not the best for the game (since we have to make rulings on the spot based on the rules we print, not to limit combos that are against the spirit of the game).

In conclusion: John did not 'game' any system, and he did not receive any pre-knowledge nor preferential treatment from his position. The outcome would have been the same for any player who tried that combo on that day. Hopefully this answers the question, but I would encourage any who would still want to make accusations without having been at the tournament and without an understanding of what actually occurred to review this and see that nothing improper was going on (which is why I am posting for full disclosure). Look instead to the fact that the active playtesters and leaders of the game also happen to be the top players for deck-building and playing a deck to its max potential, which is a much easier conclusion to reach if looked at objectively.

Josh · « **Reply #31 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:42:31 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 03, 2015, 12:03:51 PM

I was PM'd about a combo which involved more than just AiG and Stoic.. Props to JMHartz for coming up with the amazing combo and having a small part in the Nats winning deck!

Does this mean I get to give input on John's custom card?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #32 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:45:20 PM »

Ehud/Jael/Asahel likely wouldn't work often, because of Areopagus. I agree Crown of Thorns is probably the best option, but you do have to time it right to avoid DoN.

The next best option that I thought about after the tourney is actually another relatively obscure black Enhancement from Disciples, that I have used in several renditions of my defensive heavy decks. You would have to figure out how to get around Gamaliel's Speech, if its out, but there are a few other Enhancements you could use to force him to use it. Otherwise, I don't think there are any other counters to the card that John used. First person to guess it gets a cookie.

The biggest problem with "banning" judges/elders/playtesters from participating in tournaments is that while we all love being able to volunteer our time and efforts to help the game, the main reason that I enjoy the game is that I like to play it. The day that such a rule is made is the day that I thank Rob for the opportunity the past few years, but I have too much fun playing to give that up. I cant speak for all playtesters, but I assume I am not alone in that. If there is a need/call for increased transparency, or some other mechanism to reduce the perceived advantage we have based on our foreknowledge/design of the cards, then I think we are all willing to entertain ideas for that. But I think Redemption is simply too small of a game community to have a playtest team that is excluded from tournament play. Several of the playtesters already sacrifice a day of playing at the National tournament in order to Judge; if we had to give up playing at all, then unless the tournament was in our state/region it would be very hard to justify the expense (including time off from work) to attend a tournament we can't participate in.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM »

Playtesters have an obvious advantage. I'm mean they get to craft cards to fit deck strategies they like and can Nerf ones they don't, not to mention the extensive time they have with the cards prior to release. Kirk also brought up valid points about rulings ik a few combos that were broken at national for irregular reasons. This is precisely why having playtesters play is unprecedented across ccgs. With that being said its not the main reason why they win and in a game so small as Redemption it would be a mistake to exclude them from gameplay. There involvement enriches the meta and increases competitive play so it would be a huge mistake to exclude them.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #34 on:** August 03, 2015, 01:04:23 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM

Playtesters have an obvious advantage. I'm mean they get to craft cards to fit deck strategies they like and can Nerf ones they don't, not to mention the extensive time they have with the cards prior to release. Kirk also brought up valid points about rulings ik a few combos that were broken at national for irregular reasons. This is precisely why having playtesters play is unprecedented across ccgs. With that being said its not the main reason why they win and in a game so small as Redemption it would be a mistake to exclude them from gameplay. There involvement enriches the meta and increases competitive play so it would be a huge mistake to exclude them.

You do realize that you just gave reasons why those cheating, self-serving playtesters should not be allowed to play, .... and then claimed that they should be allowed to play, ... all in the same paragraph... don't you?

To help overcome this problem, I hereby announce my application to be a playtester, and would like to assemble my own team of fellow losers who will keep up the integrity of the game.

Josh · « **Reply #35 on:** August 03, 2015, 01:15:03 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 03, 2015, 12:45:20 PM

The next best option that I thought about after the tourney is actually another relatively obscure black Enhancement from Disciples, that I have used in several renditions of my defensive heavy decks. You would have to figure out how to get around Gamaliel's Speech, if its out, but there are a few other Enhancements you could use to force him to use it. Otherwise, I don't think there are any other counters to the card that John used. First person to guess it gets a cookie.

Chief Priests' Offer. And the easiest way around Gam's Speech is Gam's Speech, played as a Gray EE (since John will probably have DD active).

You can send my cookie to:
Josh Hartzler
481 Woodland Avenue
Wooster, OH 44691

The Guardian · « **Reply #36 on:** August 03, 2015, 01:27:01 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM

Playtesters have an obvious advantage. I'm mean they get to craft cards to fit deck strategies they like and can Nerf ones they don't, not to mention the extensive time they have with the cards prior to release. Kirk also brought up valid points about rulings ik a few combos that were broken at national for irregular reasons. This is precisely why having playtesters play is unprecedented across ccgs. With that being said its not the main reason why they win and in a game so small as Redemption it would be a mistake to exclude them from gameplay. There involvement enriches the meta and increases competitive play so it would be a huge mistake to exclude them.

Yep you caught us...John's been getting 2nd at Nationals all these years so that he could continue to influence cards as a playtester and no one would question him being on the design/playtest team. He even waited a year in between Disciples and TEC so that no one would suspect his devious plot...

Quote

Otherwise, I don't think there are any other counters to the card that John used.

I don't know about You, but The Lord Fights for Me...

(I grant it would take awhile to get through everything else, but eventually Aero goes away and then Stoics go away...)

Professoralstad · « **Reply #37 on:** August 03, 2015, 01:35:23 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM

Playtesters have an obvious advantage. I'm mean they get to craft cards to fit deck strategies they like and can Nerf ones they don't, not to mention the extensive time they have with the cards prior to release. Kirk also brought up valid points about rulings ik a few combos that were broken at national for irregular reasons. This is precisely why having playtesters play is unprecedented across ccgs. With that being said its not the main reason why they win and in a game so small as Redemption it would be a mistake to exclude them from gameplay. There involvement enriches the meta and increases competitive play so it would be a huge mistake to exclude them.

To be honest, many of not most of the card ideas that have been printed in the last several years were crafted primarily by Bryon, who hadn't played competitively even for years before he also took a hiatus from hosting/being involved in the game at all. Most of the cards released are updates to those ideas to make them fit into the current game. Personally, my role is very limited in terms of specifying what the cards do, and more to ensure that they do what they are supposed to based on the wording. And as far as helping/nerfing strategies we like/don't like, there is a rather substantial spread in our play preferences, to the point that it is very difficult for one of us to get something approved that we would personally like to fit our play preferences, without being called out for it.

As far as having foreknowledge of the cards, the only real advantage playtesters might have over other of the better players in the game is in Booster Draft at Nationals. Yet, none of the playtesters have actually won Booster since 2007, when it first started including the new cards (and the time I took second in 2012, no new set was released). After draft, there are at least 6-8 months until the first major tournament (State or higher) in which the new cards can be used.

I agree that the system we have is probbly not ideal, but it is probably the best that is feasible. We are always willing to accept constructive criticism and feeback on how to avoid conflict of interest issues, but I also have an (obviously biased) opinion that it would be a mistake to exclude playtesters from competition.

And for those who think that TheHobbit is being overly critical of the system, I do not take offense with his assertions at all. It is a fairly common belief, because so many people have experience in the bigger CCGs without the same issues. It is always good to take solutions into account that have seen success in other CCGs, and see how they can or cannot fit into the framework of Redemption.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #38 on:** August 03, 2015, 01:44:16 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 03, 2015, 01:35:23 PM

It is a fairly common belief, because so many people have experience in the bigger CCGs without the same issues. It is always good to take solutions into account that have seen success in other CCGs, and see how they can or cannot fit into the framework of Redemption.

Is it safe to say that "other CCG" playtesters are paid for their work? I find that to be a huge incentive to give up playing.

I still put my hat into the Playtester Election, though. I will not reveal my Trump card yet, but obviously it is not Lysandre's.

Josh · « **Reply #39 on:** August 03, 2015, 01:50:06 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 03, 2015, 01:27:01 PM

I don't know about You, but The Lord Fights for Me... (I grant it would take awhile to get through everything else, but eventually Aero goes away and then Stoics go away...)

If CP is in play, Stoic sticks around and keeps on protecting AiG.

Legolas · « **Reply #40 on:** August 03, 2015, 02:00:41 PM »

I do not know why we question if the judges, play testers, and elders should play. They should definitely be able to have fun and play. They put a lot of time into the game, so if they are not allowed to play it is not fair for them. What is redemption about? Learning more about God and to enjoy fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ, NOT winning. If we look through that standpoint, who cares if they play? If they win or have an advantage of winning but you enjoy the game, learn about God and see how they are doing, who cares if they win or have the advantage?
If redemption is about winning, I do not even want to play it anymore.

Redoubter · « **Reply #41 on:** August 03, 2015, 03:26:56 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM

Playtesters have an obvious advantage. I'm mean they get to craft cards to fit deck strategies they like and can Nerf ones they don't, not to mention the extensive time they have with the cards prior to release.

You've never been on a playtester call or seen our discussions about these cards, so I understand that you don't know how it works. However, each of us have 'our favorites' in terms of things we like to play, and everyone else is very aware of those things. As mentioned above, we are all very different, and we don't 'slip things past' each other (at least not in my experience). I can assure you that crafting cards for our deck strategies is not happening, and that the accusation is thankfully false (mostly because, as pointed out, Bryon makes almost all of the new cards/abilities anyway). We have extra time with new cards? Yes, but we can't construct decks with them until after they are released and everyone has a chance to review them the same, so that is also a moot point.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM

Kirk also brought up valid points about rulings ik a few combos that were broken at national for irregular reasons.

Anyone who truly believes that this had any impact needs to reread my post. I addressed the fact that John was almost certainly not expecting me to just see things his way (it is rare we are intuitively on the same level with anything), and we followed the same procedures to discuss the ruling according to the framework in the current rules that we had in place to make judgement calls regardless of who had the combo.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 03, 2015, 01:44:16 PM

Is it safe to say that "other CCG" playtesters are paid for their work? I find that to be a huge incentive to give up playing.

This is very true. The volunteer leadership of Redemption is just that: volunteer. We give up our time, effort, and the chance to play the game we love (3 different Judges gave up their opportunities this past weekend to play categories they had interest in) but do not get paid because we love supporting the game and making it better. I don't think it's something that needs to change (I don't look for payment), but it is a big difference from other CCGs.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #42 on:** August 03, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on August 03, 2015, 03:26:56 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM
Playtesters have an obvious advantage. I'm mean they get to craft cards to fit deck strategies they like and can Nerf ones they don't, not to mention the extensive time they have with the cards prior to release.

However, each of us have 'our favorites' in terms of things we like to play, and everyone else is very aware of those things. As mentioned above, we are all very different, and we don't 'slip things past' each other (at least not in my experience). point.

First I never said that people sneak things past each other I said that you can craft cards that you want to use in strategies you like which you just confirmed in your post.

Quote from: Redoubter on August 03, 2015, 03:26:56 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 12:54:57 PM
Kirk also brought up valid points about rulings ik a few combos that were broken at national for irregular reasons.

Anyone who truly believes that this had any impact needs to reread my post. I addressed the fact that John was almost certainly not expecting me to just see things his way (it is rare we are intuitively on the same level with anything), and we followed the same procedures to discuss the ruling according to the framework in the current rules that we had in place to make judgement calls regardless of who had the combo.

I'm not referring to The Arrest "combo" and neither was Kirk. Its not a difficult ruling so there was really no question as to whether it would work or not. I'm pretty sure he's talking about more complicated combos and so was I.

Redoubter · « **Reply #43 on:** August 03, 2015, 03:50:29 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 03:40:06 PM

First I never said that people sneak things past each other I said that you can craft cards that you want to use in strategies you like which you just confirmed in your post.

Then you are misreading my post, which I can see the potential for. Let me clarify, then.

By 'our favorites' I'm talking about deck concepts we play ourselves, not cards in the new set. And as mentioned multiple times before, we do not craft 99% of the set ourselves (Bryon does that), so that concern you seem to have has already been addressed.

Hopefully that clears that up; I did not say what you think I said.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 03:40:06 PM

I'm not referring to The Arrest "combo" and neither was Kirk. Its not a difficult ruling so there was really no question as to whether it would work or not. I'm pretty sure he's talking about more complicated combos and so was I.

We all interpret the game differently obviously, and there is disagreement many rulings; just being a playtester or having access to one is not a guarantee you can a combo past the entire group. However, recently, we developed a new way of classifying what was just "Elders" before, and we have a group of dedicated Judges who are going to be making these rulings. In the past months, we have met regularly to try to simplify and codify the rules to this game for players, and you will see the fruit of many man-hours of dedication in the next few weeks. At Nationals, we had a system in place and approved in advance so that we could ensure that rulings were fair and by-the-book, and being a playtester did not help John in that regard.

So basically, if you are referring to past events, I cannot speak to them. We've already taken steps to make this process, and others, better going forward, and have spent a great deal of time working on making the game a better experience overall for everyone.

Praeceps · « **Reply #44 on:** August 03, 2015, 04:37:47 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 03, 2015, 01:44:16 PM

I still put my hat into the Playtester Election, though. I will not reveal my Trump card yet, but obviously it is not Lysandre's.

I'll join you. Although it might just be easier if we acted as the judges at matches. That way the cards come out (mostly) correctly but we can screw everything up at the last moment anyway

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #45 on:** August 03, 2015, 05:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on August 03, 2015, 03:50:29 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 03:40:06 PM
First I never said that people sneak things past each other I said that you can craft cards that you want to use in strategies you like which you just confirmed in your post.

By 'our favorites' I'm talking about deck concepts we play ourselves, not cards in the new set. And as mentioned multiple times before, we do not craft 99% of the set ourselves (Bryon does that), so that concern you seem to have has already been addressed.

Oh okay but in any matter I really don't think Bryon crafts 99% of the because that would mean out of a 100 card set there are 5+ Elders making one abililty. Moreover, even if you wanted to claim that no Elder makes cards to fit there play style you really can't unless you can somehow speak for everyone. Its not really provable either from an outside perspective, more intuitive than anything.

Its really not bad to make a card that you would like to use but to say that you gain no advantage from it is not accurate. Which is my whole point. Sure diversity mitigates power flow and Elders are obviously putting the game over there own intentions buts its still a factor.

Quote from: Redoubter on August 03, 2015, 03:26:56 PM

We have extra time with new cards? Yes, but we can't construct decks with them until after they are released and everyone has a chance to review them the same, so that is also a moot point.

What do you mean you can't construct decks with them? How do you playtest the new cards then?

Basically I am understanding your point of view as there is no competitive advantage to being a playtester as you have dismissed both advantages by saying they are non-existent.

Quote from: Redoubter on August 03, 2015, 03:50:29 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 03:40:06 PM
First I never said that people sneak things past each other I said that you can craft cards that you want to use in strategies you like which you just confirmed in your post.

Then you are misreading my post, which I can see the potential for. Let me clarify, then.

By 'our favorites' I'm talking about deck concepts we play ourselves, not cards in the new set. And as mentioned multiple times before, we do not craft 99% of the set ourselves (Bryon does that), so that concern you seem to have has already been addressed.

Hopefully that clears that up; I did not say what you think I said.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 03:40:06 PM
I'm not referring to The Arrest "combo" and neither was Kirk. Its not a difficult ruling so there was really no question as to whether it would work or not. I'm pretty sure he's talking about more complicated combos and so was I.

We all interpret the game differently obviously, and there is disagreement many rulings; just being a playtester or having access to one is not a guarantee you can a combo past the entire group. However, recently, we developed a new way of classifying what was just "Elders" before, and we have a group of dedicated Judges who are going to be making these rulings. In the past months, we have met regularly to try to simplify and codify the rules to this game for players, and you will see the fruit of many man-hours of dedication in the next few weeks. At Nationals, we had a system in place and approved in advance so that we could ensure that rulings were fair and by-the-book, and being a playtester did not help John in that regard.

The disadvantage I think is that a playtester combo-ing is more in the loop than anyone else so they don't necessarily have to ask about the validity of there combo in a ruling question. Since there's really no rules about confidentiality it could get out.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #46 on:** August 03, 2015, 05:16:14 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on August 03, 2015, 04:37:47 PM

I'll join you. Although it might just be easier if we acted as the judges at matches. That way the cards come out (mostly) correctly but we can screw everything up at the last moment anyway

Newer players would love that!

RLK: "I got this Jacob's Ladder card in a booster pack. It says I can rescue any Lost Soul. Does that mean I can rescue my own Lost Souls?"

YMT: "Sure! Why not? SAs were meant to override game rules!

RDT (RLK's opponent): "Wait, what?"

Praeceps: "I concur with YMT, so the ruling is official."

RLK: "Yay! Thanks, mister."

Praeceps · « **Reply #47 on:** August 03, 2015, 05:25:35 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 03, 2015, 05:16:14 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on August 03, 2015, 04:37:47 PM
I'll join you. Although it might just be easier if we acted as the judges at matches. That way the cards come out (mostly) correctly but we can screw everything up at the last moment anyway

Newer players would love that!

RLK: "I got this Jacob's Ladder card in a booster pack. It says I can rescue any Lost Soul. Does that mean I can rescue my own Lost Souls?"

YMT: "Sure! Why not? SAs were meant to override game rules!

RDT (RLK's opponent): "Wait, what?"

Praeceps: "I concur with YMT, so the ruling is official."

RLK: "Yay! Thanks, mister."

Absolutely!

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #48 on:** August 03, 2015, 05:28:14 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 03, 2015, 05:16:14 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on August 03, 2015, 04:37:47 PM
I'll join you. Although it might just be easier if we acted as the judges at matches. That way the cards come out (mostly) correctly but we can screw everything up at the last moment anyway

Newer players would love that!

RLK: "I got this Jacob's Ladder card in a booster pack. It says I can rescue any Lost Soul. Does that mean I can rescue my own Lost Souls?"

YMT: "Sure! Why not? SAs were meant to override game rules!

RDT (RLK's opponent): "Wait, what?"

Praeceps: "I concur with YMT, so the ruling is official."

RLK: "Yay! Thanks, mister."

I mean,

As long as I still get a chance to block against his heroes when he goes for his souls.

Redoubter · « **Reply #49 on:** August 03, 2015, 05:30:28 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 05:12:29 PM

Oh okay but in any matter I really don't think Bryon crafts 99% of the because that would mean out of a 100 card set there are 5+ Elders making one abililty.

We've explained how the process works. You aren't involved in it, which is why we laid it out so that you could get an understanding of it. Bryon makes the sets, and you seem to be under the assumption each of us makes cards (or even a card); this is not the case, and when we are able to add 'additional cards' to a set if it expands, those abilities come from existing lists or from collaboration by many playtesters before they come from any one of us. And in the exceedingly rare case where one of us does put forth a polished and brand new card to be included, those are scrutinized far more than anything Bryon puts out there, and it is going to usually be unrecognizable from the initial suggestion by the time it comes out the other side.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 05:12:29 PM

Moreover, even if you wanted to claim that no Elder makes cards to fit there play style you really can't unless you can somehow speak for everyone. Its not really provable either from an outside perspective, more intuitive than anything.

I am among the active playtesters, and I am speaking for that process (as have others already). Either we are lying to you or we aren't; if you want to assume the worst it tells me a lot more about your purpose here than anything. Ask yourself why you refuse to believe us, and why you assume I have to be lying to you, but you are wrong in either case.

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 05:12:29 PM

What do you mean you can't construct decks with them? How do you playtest the new cards then?

Basically I am understanding your point of view as there is no competitive advantage to being a playtester as you have dismissed both advantages by saying they are non-existent.

I am not getting your point in any way. Of course we playtest the cards in actual decks, but we aren't constructing the decks for tournament play until after the set is released. We don't have some sort of advantage at Nationals because we have seen them extensively, that's absurd. You have failed to demonstrate how there is somehow an advantage to testing cards when there are 9 months before the State/Regional tournaments start up after release. Can no one catch up on these cards in that time? How are we at an advantage?

Quote from: TheHobbit on August 03, 2015, 05:12:29 PM

The disadvantage I think is that a playtester combo-ing is more in the loop than anyone else so they don't necessarily have to ask about the validity of there combo in a ruling question. Since there's really no rules about confidentiality it could get out.

Also not true, and I directly refuted that earlier in this thread multiple times. How are they 'more in the loop' about the validity if no question is asked (we aren't hiding combos in a playtester vault or something)? They don't get to make the ruling on-the-spot, which is what we have to do when there is no thread on it in Rulings Questions and thus the discussion has not taken place. Since John never approached Justin, Jordan, or myself to ask whether his combo would work, and because we were the ones who would make the call at Nationals, there is no 'access' or special privilege he had that would help him determine that combo would be ruled in his favor. If you want to assume otherwise, you can do so, but I am again demonstrating that this accusation is incorrect and the premises upon which it is built are faulty.

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