Cactus Game Design Message Boards

"On activation, discard this card to exchange two O.T. human Heroes in your territory with two Heroes in an opponent's territory for two turns."

If either I or my opponent has only one hero, can I still do the exchange? Can I exchange one hero in my territory with two in my opp's territory if that's all I have?

I would agree that you must fulfill it all.

Hmm... you're supposed to carry out as much of the ability as you can. But since its an exchange, I would dare say that you exchange two if its possible, or only one if either of you has only one hero.

like you said, it's an exchange. but that's why you can't.

Quote from: LukeSnyder on August 01, 2009, 02:54:51 PM

Hmm... you're supposed to carry out as much of the ability as you can. But since its an exchange, I would dare say that you exchange two if its possible, or only one if either of you has only one hero.

like you said, it's an exchange. but that's why you can't.

You can't exchange 1 hero for nothing, or nothing for one hero, but if you both have only one hero, I don't see why you wouldn't complete that much of the ability.

So, this is kind of like a cost/gain scenario? It's basically saying "Give your opponent two heroes to take two heroes from him" (some deets left out)?

The cost is discarding the card and the gain is exchange part of the ability.

Here's how I see it. An 'exchange' is replacing one card with another; I don't know of any 'exchange' cards where the exchange is not 1 to 1. Therefore, I would say that if you or your opponent only has one hero, you can only give one hero and take one hero.  That would be completing the ability to its fullest. But if you both have at least two eligible heroes, you must do both if you use the artifact. If either player has no heroes, you can't complete any part of the ability (i.e. you can't give your opponent a hero for nothing, or take a hero for nothing).

I see no reason why you couldn't use the artifact at all even if you can't do a 2 for 2 exchange, since Jephthah allows you to discard one EC.

Of course, I'm not official, but this is how I see it.

Instaposted by Mr. Snyder

What about Zeal?  It states that you "discard two ecs of different brigades", yet if only 1 brigade is in play, it still works.  I really don't know, but this was just something I was reminded of.

What about it? You can certainly discard just one character, just as you can exchange one of your heroes for one of theirs (the way I see it). My point is 'exchange' in Redemption has always been 1-for-1 (unless I'm forgetting something) so you can do a 1-for-1 exchange if that is all that is possible, but you can't do an X-for-Y exchange, unless X=Y. So no 1-for-2, 2-for-0, etc.

Hey,

An exchange ability must find all of the targets it needs or it doesn't exchange anything.  If either player doesn't have two heroes (or if you don't have two OT heroes) no exchange happens.  Exchange abilities cannot be done in part.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

YES! I WAS RIGHT!

that's a first...

It's not. It has to do with what EXCHANGE means.
If I am instructed to discard two cards, but only have one, I can carry out part of the instruction by just discarding one.
If there is only one of the two things in play needed for an exchange, I can't even carry it out partially because there is nothing to EXCHANGE it with. It's not an exchange then.

Exchange means an even-up trade. I think we all agree on that.

Based on the way other cards are played (do as much as possible), I would agree that a 1-for-1 exchange can be done if 2-for-2 is not possible had the card been worded differently. However, Tim raises a valid point. The card says the exchange is for 2 - period. If 1-for-1 were to be possible, it would say "exchange 1 or 2" or "exchange up to 2". I must agree with Tim that you must do it all or do nothing in this case.

Luke's point of view is well-taken. But I think the interpretation should be 2-for-2.

Mike

Hmm, I understand what you guys are saying, but I'm still a little bit unclear. Please bear with me, I've been out of Redemption for a good year now, so I guess I'm just being slow

Hey,

Quote from: LukeSnyder on August 08, 2009, 08:02:18 PM

I don't see how Zeal of the Lord can only discard one evil character in play if there's only one evil brigade, if Stalks couldn't complete only one of the two exchanges if there aren't enough heroes to do both.

Stalks doesn't have two one-for-one exchanges.  It has a single, two-for-two exchange.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I still don't understand how this is different from zeal, really...

Zeal for the Lord
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and discard two Evil Characters of different brigades. Cannot be negated if used by Phinehas, son of Eleazar. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Numbers 25:11 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

Couldn't you say the same thing about zeal? Zeal doesn't have two one evil character discards, it has one two evil discard? It seems to me that the wording on the cards is almost identical, maybe I am misunderstanding the nature of exchanging or something.

but zeal says discard two evil characters. period.

Once you pay the cost (if any), you complete the ability as much as possible.

That would mean that you could exchange two of your Heroes for one of your opponent's with Stalks.