Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If they are in play, they would count for and be targeted by many things that depend on what card it is, but when it's face-down, not all players can know what it is. For example, if I have an Ambushed N.T. character in my territory and my opponent tries to CM it and I try to use Herod's Temple, how would my opponent know whether I'm Discarding the proper brigade or whether the Hero is even N.T. in the first place? Making them out of play solves more problems than it creates.

Why should face down cards be exceptions?

Well if you want another explanation besides "them's the rulez", then how about the fact that face-down cards are face down so most times they are indeterminate.  As a result, you don't know if the card can be targeted or not.  All card attributes should be known before being allowed to be targeted.

If they are in play, they would count for and be targeted by many things that depend on what card it is, but when it's face-down, not all players can know what it is. For example, if I have an Ambushed N.T. character in my territory and my opponent tries to CM it and I try to use Herod's Temple, how would my opponent know whether I'm Discarding the proper brigade or whether the Hero is even N.T. in the first place? Making them out of play solves more problems than it creates.

Instaposted.

does this mean that a new beginning can't target artifact piles now?  (sry if this is a redundant question, i haven't been able to read all 9 pages of discussion)

does this mean that a new beginning can't target artifact piles now?  (sry if this is a redundant question, i haven't been able to read all 9 pages of discussion)

No. It targets all face-down cards that do not have protection from shuffle (which currently is none).  It's due to how targeting was defined eons ago for "ALL cards" "not in Land of Redemption and discard".

Quote from: STAMP on March 05, 2012, 06:20:09 PM

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on March 05, 2012, 06:09:46 PM

does this mean that a new beginning can't target artifact piles now?  (sry if this is a redundant question, i haven't been able to read all 9 pages of discussion)

No. It targets all face-down cards that do not have protection from shuffle (which currently is none).  It's due to how targeting was defined eons ago for "ALL cards" "not in Land of Redemption and discard".

The errata doesn't say ALL though, and as such, if ANB is to target face down artifacts, it probably needs another errata. The pile is not in play, a set-aside area, or a hand.

You're preaching to the choir director when it comes to ANB. 

Let me know how that errata request goes.  Don't be surprised if the process leaves scars. 

I'm simply not sure what the etiquette on handling erratas is. If they are, as jmhartz described, the final word on the card (which I believe they should be), then as of right now, ANB simply doesn't shuffle artifact piles.

I agree, unfortunatly the elder's have been fairly silent in this thread.  It would be nice to know if there is an answer coming forth, or we have to banter around for 10 more pages to get noticed.

unfortunatly the elder's have been fairly silent in this thread.

I think that A New Beginning  (Pa) and Split Altar  (P) happen to be the 2 cards that the elders are MOST tired of talking about/existing.  So having a thread about both of them is like having a thread about birth certificates and communism and wondering why Obama isn't chiming in.

As for what to do with these cards, I already posted about Split Altar on the last page, but you should only shuffle active artifacts with that card.  As for ANB, you should shuffle your whole artifact pile (including the face-down ones) and all your other non-protected cards that aren't in your land of redemption or discard pile.

Maybe this means ANB needs yet another errata, but if you want that, you'll have to get some other elder to care more than I do about these annoying cards

The inconsistencies here are really frustrating.

Demands Elder Rulings.
Is dissatisfied with Elder Rulings.

lol LiveJournal, what is this 2007?

Split Altar does not shuffle face down arts.

ANB does.

That is what he said, that is the way it's been, the Elder's don't want to spend more time on this.

Reading back through the topic, I realized I never actually stated this, but I was arguing that the REG should be changed. I still think it should be, but since I've been vastly outvoted here, I've let that particular portion of my argument go. I'm dissatisfied with Underwood's comments because I don't think, "we're tired of hearing about these cards, so we're going to ignore this" is really helpful. The current ANB errata does not shuffle artifact piles, and I think that simply saying "well it does, and we're not going to worry about an errata because we hate hearing about it" is a little ridiculous. That's a massive inconsistency, and frankly, I don't think its too much to ask for a quick official errata that adds "Artifact Piles" to the current ANB errata. Regarding the point that "that's the way it's always been," I'll just point you to Priestly Breastplate  (Pi). I don't mean to cause offense since I have a lot of respect for all the Elders, both as a team and individually, but isn't it kind of their job to make sure that these inconsistencies don't exist?