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Special. Your oponents ability is causing you to lose the battle. This harkens back to the Complainers ruling a couple of years ago.

Your question has been running for 2 days here http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/rule-changeclarification-negates/msg484764/#msg484764

The SA didn't cause the losing situation. The numbers did. Thus I disagree with RDT unless I see the complainers ruling and reasoning behind it.

But the special ability caused the hero to be losing by numbers. Ergo, I disagree with you and disagree with your disagreement of RDT.

Still the hero was losing by numbers and not removal. Thus I disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement.

The rule is:

Is a special ability causing a losing condition of any kind?

Yes: Special Initiative - Losing side may attempt to interrupt/negate that special ability

No: Normal Initiative - determine by the Initiative Table

That's the way the rule is and has been and has been confirmed to be.

Quote from: Redoubter on June 15, 2012, 06:06:22 PM

Quote from: Red on June 15, 2012, 06:02:06 PM

Still the hero was losing by numbers and not removal. Thus I disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement.

The rule is:

Is a special ability causing a losing condition of any kind?

Yes: Special Initiative - Losing side may attempt to interrupt/negate that special ability

No: Normal Initiative - determine by the Initiative Table

That's the way the rule is and has been and has been confirmed to be.

So basically in that situation you only have special initiative? If so that is frankly stupid. I've always played and never have been corrected that if you lose by the numbers you lose by numbers and can play whatever the heck you want.

You're going to have to explain the bold part of your post.  I actually don't know what you intended to say.

Also, I'd appreciate not being told what I say is stupid, especially since I'm trying to help you understand the rules

Now, you're missing the point (I think?), in that you still have initiative, it's just a question of what you can do with it.  If no Special Ability caused a losing condition, Initiative is determined as normal without either side being able to respond to that specific Special Ability (except within the normal confines of initiative, of course).  If a Special Ability did cause a losing condition (such as with your original post), then the losing side not only has initiative, but Special Initiative, where they can respond to that particular Special Ability only.  If they decline, Initiative is determined as normal.

So, in your example, a losing condition was created by the Special Ability on Herod the Great.  If it had not caused a losing condition (the last hero remaining being too large, for example), then no Special Initiative is granted and initiative is determined as normal.  However, in your example the Special Ability leaves the heroes in a losing condition.  Therefore, the rescuer is given Special Initiative before any hero is removed from battle to interrupt/negate only Herod the Great.  The rescuer may play He Is Risen, for example, and have all heroes still be in battle while it resolves.

This is especially important when the Special Ability involves Choose the Rescuer, or removes heroes from battle that you would be playing the interrupt/negate on.  That's why there is a difference and there are two types of initiative.

I hope that answers your question sufficiently and intelligently enough that my explanation is no longer "stupid".

A clarification that may smooth matters out some.  For example let's say you band Claudia to Joseph of Arimathea.  And you opponent removed Joseph from battle, Joseph get's Special initiative to interrupt or negate his removal.  IF you do not use Special Initiative I believe it returns to normal initiative.  I have always understood the Special Initiative in this particular situation was ruled to give exiting hero's an opportunity to save themselves.  Again I do not believe that Special Initiative replaces Normal Initiative, just temporarily overrides it and then play would resume with normal initiative.

ah so the whole fights cause you wanna slapjack

My entire problem is that in a tournament, I have yet to be corrected on this, and because there is no definition of Special Inisative from the Elders on REG or the REG update thread, I'm inclined to question if SI is how you are defining it Redoubter. This is mainly because in my area it has not been defined that way and actually makes the game better in my opinion like that. If I leave a Hero (or EC) in battle and he's losing by the numbers I have Normal Inish to play a Negate (or anything else) and it would work normally and negate the card. I don't see how this is an issue.

For the record, I would have initially ruled that it would not be special initiative here, however, it's a ruling that could go either way, and it looks like it has definitely been ruled quite recently. Arguing with such a ruling seems quite futile.

If I get SI from a normal battle then what is normal Initiative for?

And what, pray tell, is a "normal battle"?

You have the normal initiative table to decide who's initiative it is when Special is not invoked.  For example, I mess with your territory and not characters in battle.  Obviously there is no Special Initiative, so you determine it normally with the initiative table.

There you go, that's what it's for.

Okay, I see your problem, though I don't understand it.  Having regular initiative does nothing to stop you from playing negates, or targeting anything in battle.  You're looking at it wrong.  Special Initiative gives you a special opportunity to negate that effect before it completes.  You can still stop it later, you just have to do it after the ability is done and normal initative comes to you.

That's all it is.  A special opportunity to interrupt/negate the effect.  That's it.  It doesn't mean anything else.

Oh, and Option 1.  Are you trying to say that a SA causing you to be rescuing with a different character is not affecting the battle?

First, there is no such thing as "losing by a special ability."  There is only:

1. Regular Initiative (based on numbers according to the initiative table), and

2. Losing by removal (which has lately been called 'special initiative,' though that term does not appear in the rule book)

The part that is fuzzy is when 1 banded character is removed from battle but there is still another character remaining on that side of the battle.  In the past, the rules have allowed an interrupt to be played on either of those characters (the remaining one or the one being removed), though I am not certain that needs to remain legal.  It seems to me that as long as one character remains on your side of the battle, you can only ever have regular initiative.

It seems to me that you should only really be "losing by removal" if your last character in battle is being removed from battle.