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The identifier on The Tabernacle Reads: Holds one active Tabernacle Artifact. That gives us our answer. Ithamar can't force The Tabernacle to do something it can't do.
There is an unwritten hierarchy of special abilities and game rules. Some special abilities overrule some game rules. Some game rules overrule other game rules. Some special abilities overrule some special abilities. This is actually a lot more complicated than this one issue.
How do I know which game rules are "hard" and which are "soft"?
The problem with comparing Ithamar to MC/IP is that those artifacts are active other places due to identifiers, not special abilities. So you can't really say "special abilities overrule identifiers" and then cite 2 identifiers as evidence, lol.
Quote from: browarod on April 19, 2013, 11:22:56 AMThe problem with comparing Ithamar to MC/IP is that those artifacts are active other places due to identifiers, not special abilities. So you can't really say "special abilities overrule identifiers" and then cite 2 identifiers as evidence, lol.Well, even though I did not personally cite those as examples, does it matter? Identifiers can override game rules just like special abilities. And if you want to look at an example of a special ability activating an artifact to override a game rule, look at Priestly Breastplate.
or...we can say ok as of today all rulings will be decided based on this:Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts game rules, the card takes precedence. The cardoverrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player canconcede the game at any time.When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’thappen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.Example: If one effect reads “You may draw a card” and another reads“You can’t have more than 16 cards at any given time,” the effect that precludes you from adding an additional card to hand wins.
I'm not even sure why we have 2 separate threads for this anymore since they've both basically come down to the same thing, lol.
The SA makes no mention of being able to override the identifier of The Tabernacle, so it doesn't.
Ithimar only says you can activate an artifact, he never says what kind of artifact.
And because he does not specify any artifact, he does not override the identifier on Tabernacle.
Priestly Breastplate actually seems more like evidence against your position. Even though its special ability lets you place it on a Priest, it still counts as your 1 artifact on the artifact pile each turn you activate it. The special ability can't overrule the game rule (same with Urim and Thummim).
Quote from: Redoubter on April 19, 2013, 06:43:48 PMAnd because he does not specify any artifact, he does not override the identifier on Tabernacle. I would like to see what you think Ithamar's ability would be if it allowed the activation of any artifact.
Quote from: Redoubter on April 19, 2013, 06:43:48 PMThe SA makes no mention of being able to override the identifier of The Tabernacle, so it doesn't. In general, SAs never mention being able to override identifiers. It's implied that if a special ability says to do something, that you are allowed to do it. Can you provide some examples of cards that specifically mention in their SA that they are overriding an identifier of another card?
Quote from: Redoubter on April 19, 2013, 06:43:48 PMIthimar only says you can activate an artifact, he never says what kind of artifact.Thus implying that he can activate any artifact. Cards should do what they say, and if they are ruled to do something else, an errata should be issued.
Cards should do what they say, and if they are ruled to do something else, an errata should be issued.
Actually, no, not implying any artifact. The word "any" is very important in Redemption, as is its exclusion. Just look at the recent ruling on face-down cards and how "any" determines whether there can even be a targeting there.
Hey,Quote from: Redoubter on April 20, 2013, 08:42:11 PMActually, no, not implying any artifact. The word "any" is very important in Redemption, as is its exclusion. Just look at the recent ruling on face-down cards and how "any" determines whether there can even be a targeting there. This isn't the case. It's not the word "any" that's significant, it's the complete lack of restrictions. The words "any", "a," and "one" have been used interchangeably on Redemption cards for years.Tschow,Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly