Author Topic: Sowing The Seed vs Protection... (Read 3437 times)

theselfevident · « **on:** March 22, 2012, 04:51:43 PM »

If Sowing the Seed is placed on an evil character and the character is protected from conversion, does that evil character get discarded rather than converted? When does the -2/-2 start taking effect?

adotson85 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:56:47 PM »

Depends on how the EC is protected. If it is protected by a fort then I would say it isn't converted. If it is protected via it's own SA and doesn't specify that it protected outside of battle then It would be converted. If it reaches */0 and is protected from conversion it is discarded. The decrease occurs during the owner's,of the EC, upkeep phase.

theselfevident · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:57:49 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on March 22, 2012, 04:56:47 PM

Depends on how the EC is protected. If it is protected by a fort then I would say it isn't converted. If it is protected via it's own SA and doesn't specify that it protected outside of battle then It would be converted. If it reaches */0 and is protected from conversion it is discarded. The decrease occurs during the owner's upkeep phase.

which owner (EC or StS)?

adotson85 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:00:06 PM »

Whomever owns the Evil Character that StS is placed on.

megamanlan · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:01:31 PM »

My question is does it move onto a new Character or just die then if It the EC is Discarded?

theselfevident · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:03:17 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on March 22, 2012, 05:01:31 PM

My question is does it move onto a new Character or just die then if It the EC is Discarded?

Good question!

Also:

Lets say protection is by a fort and the fort protects from discard, does the decrease remain until the character is discarded/converted by either the fort being negated or the character entering battle? What happens if it does enter battle, does it get converted right away or does its evil ability kick in before conversion?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:06:00 PM »

Regardless of the means of the protection, if the evil character is protected from conversion, he is, at that point, */0 (or less), which constitutes discard. If the evil character is also protected from discard, I'd argue that the outcome remains the same. The conversion is an instant ability, so if it tries to convert and can't, then it can't try again later; however, the evil character, again, is still */0, and would be discarded upon entering battle (after its ability completes). I would say that Sowing the Seed sticks to the evil character if it isn't converted, since the wording (the term "then...") suggests that the card doesn't switch evil characters until it converts.

adotson85 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:10:14 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:06:00 PM

Regardless of the means of the protection, if the evil character is protected from conversion, he is, at that point, */0 (or less), which constitutes discard. If the evil character is also protected from discard, I'd argue that the outcome remains the same. The conversion is an instant ability, so if it tries to convert and can't, then it can't try again later; however, the evil character, again, is still */0, and would be discarded upon entering battle (after its ability completes). I would say that Sowing the Seed sticks to the evil character if it isn't converted, since the wording (the term "then...") suggests that the card doesn't switch evil characters until it converts.

I agree. I think the EC has to be converted for StS to be placed on another EC. StS also has a weirdly worded play as:

Sowing the Seed (Ap)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Selected Human Evil Character decreases 2/2 per turn. At */0 or less, Character becomes a Green brigade Hero with abilities (*/*) at face value. Then Sowing the Seed is placed on another human Evil Character in territory and continues. • Play As: Place on selected human Evil Character. Disease that character and decrease character 2/2 per turn. If character reaches */0 or less, convert character to a green brigade Hero and reset abilities (*/*) to face value. If converted, holder must place Sowing the Seed on another human Evil Character in territory. Effect is ongoing. • Identifiers: NT, Disease • Verse: Matthew 13:23

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:12:32 PM »

I love the wording on the second sentence. I imagine walking up to random people, "I DISEASE YOU!"

theselfevident · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:14:49 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on March 22, 2012, 05:10:14 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:06:00 PM
Regardless of the means of the protection, if the evil character is protected from conversion, he is, at that point, */0 (or less), which constitutes discard. If the evil character is also protected from discard, I'd argue that the outcome remains the same. The conversion is an instant ability, so if it tries to convert and can't, then it can't try again later; however, the evil character, again, is still */0, and would be discarded upon entering battle (after its ability completes). I would say that Sowing the Seed sticks to the evil character if it isn't converted, since the wording (the term "then...") suggests that the card doesn't switch evil characters until it converts.

I agree. I think the EC has to be converted for StS to be placed on another EC. StS also has a weirdly worded play as:

Sowing the Seed (Ap)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Selected Human Evil Character decreases 2/2 per turn. At */0 or less, Character becomes a Green brigade Hero with abilities (*/*) at face value. Then Sowing the Seed is placed on another human Evil Character in territory and continues. • Play As: Place on selected human Evil Character. Disease that character and decrease character 2/2 per turn. If character reaches */0 or less, convert character to a green brigade Hero and reset abilities (*/*) to face value. If converted, holder must place Sowing the Seed on another human Evil Character in territory. Effect is ongoing. • Identifiers: NT, Disease • Verse: Matthew 13:23

Please clarify if character gets converted or discarded while in territory if it has reached */0 and protect on fort is negated since it is an ongoing ability per the play as?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:18:44 PM »

Disregard that play-as.

theselfevident · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:19:40 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:18:44 PM

Disregard that play-as.

Ok, but I don't see how you can defend a position with the play as and then say disregard it... and again another reason why not to trust "play as" explanations...

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:21:31 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on March 22, 2012, 05:19:40 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:18:44 PM
Disregard that play-as.

Ok, but I don't see how you can defend a position with the play as and then say disregard it... and again another reason why not to trust "play as" explanations...

I never defended my position with the play as, I defended my position with the special ability on the card itself. I don't think adotson was using the play as to defend his position either, he was just pointing out how weird it is.

theselfevident · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:23:31 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:21:31 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on March 22, 2012, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:18:44 PM
Disregard that play-as.

Ok, but I don't see how you can defend a position with the play as and then say disregard it... and again another reason why not to trust "play as" explanations...

I never defended my position with the play as, I defended my position with the special ability on the card itself. I don't think adotson was using the play as to defend his position either, he was just pointing out how weird it is.

Fair enough, but still another reason why "play as" isn't official language and why not to trust it... in general, it should be "disregard play as"

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:25:41 PM »

"Disregard erratas disguised as play-as" was a common anthem last season. I'm not sure why that's mostly stopped, but play-as' are not at all official language, and shouldn't be trusted as anything more than guidelines. They should never determine how one makes rulings.

theselfevident · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:29:01 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 22, 2012, 05:25:41 PM

"Disregard erratas disguised as play-as" was a common anthem last season. I'm not sure why that's mostly stopped, but play-as' are not at all official language, and shouldn't be trusted as anything more than guidelines. They should never determine how one makes rulings.

My personal anthem:
Quote from: theselfevident on March 15, 2012, 04:45:46 PM

Vary good that clarifies a couple questions then... REG play as is not official rather an explanation of how the card be played in layman's terms. Once again, another reason why not to fully trust the REG =)

This isn't true. Play As' are valid. They integrate the game's terminology to previously issued cards to make the game more consistent in the abilities on cards.

Didn't say it wasn't valid, just not to trust it where it comes to play as

STAMP · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:30:50 PM »

The decrease portion of StS is ongoing and will continue unless the character is converted or discarded. As such, the first time the EC reaches */0 or less the trigger to convert will attempt to fire. If the EC is protected from conversion, then the EC will be discarded along with StS. If the EC is protected from discard, then the EC will remain in territory with StS until next turn or the protection from discard is turned off. On the next turn, the EC will AGAIN decrease 2/2, and all triggers will be checked. If the EC continues to be protected from conversion and discard, it will continue to decrease 2/2. You could conceivably have a -n/-m EC in territory at any point. And of course, I agree with the others that StS only gets placed on another EC at the time the original EC is converted.

adotson85 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:34:15 PM »

I was just pointing out how weird the play as wording was. I would disregard the play as and base the ruling on the actual wording on the card.

theselfevident · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:37:10 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on March 22, 2012, 05:30:50 PM

The decrease portion of StS is ongoing and will continue unless the character is converted or discarded. As such, the first time the EC reaches */0 or less the trigger to convert will attempt to fire. If the EC is protected from conversion, then the EC will be discarded along with StS. If the EC is protected from discard, then the EC will remain in territory with StS until next turn or the protection from discard is turned off. On the next turn, the EC will AGAIN decrease 2/2, and all triggers will be checked. If the EC continues to be protected from conversion and discard, it will continue to decrease 2/2. You could conceivably have a -n/-m EC in territory at any point. And of course, I agree with the others that StS only gets placed on another EC at the time the original EC is converted.

So follow up question on that then, lets say there is no protection of any sort for the evil character and it is at 2/2 after my opponents turn and I activate Crown of Thorns... Would the character be discarded or converted?

adotson85 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:42:33 PM »

I would say converted because StS only says "At */0 or less, Character becomes a Green brigade Hero." Crown of Thorns causes the evil character to meet this criteria.

theselfevident · « **Reply #20 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:44:40 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on March 22, 2012, 05:42:33 PM

I would say converted because StS only says "At */0 or less, Character becomes a Green brigade Hero." Crown of Thorns causes the evil character to meet this criteria.

I was thinking discard because the trigger is at the decrease point from StS, but in this twisted Redemption world nothing is as it seems LOL

STAMP · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:47:57 PM »

adotson is correct.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:55:44 PM »

I agree with adotson.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2012, 06:00:10 PM »

I agree with adotston, STAMP, and Chronic.

It may not seem necessary to post this, but I haven't made my opinion about this known about this. And since you are all obviously lost without my opinion it was necessary.

Someday you'll thank me,

Wings

P.S.

What are we talking about?

theselfevident · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2012, 06:02:56 PM »

So for example, I have placed StS in a prior turn and they have a protect fort for their ec, I ra w/ Daniel w/ Hidden Treasures active and I play The Meal in Emmaus to activate Crown of Thorns as long as the EC wasn't already at */0 and the resulting decrease made said EC at 0, it would be converted not discarded and therefore subsequently placed on another EC of my choosing in that territory, correct?

Next question, does it have to be the same territory?

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Author Topic: Sowing The Seed vs Protection... (Read 3437 times)

Chronic Apathy

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Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy