Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If I have wheel within a wheel in hand and only have one angel in my deck and it is already in play, can I just place WWW on it? If so, do I still have to search my deck, even though I know I dont have any other angels?

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver/Green • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Search deck or discard pile for an O.T. angel and put it in play. Place on your angel: That Hero is protected from opponents’ Dominants and has Site access. • Play As: Search deck or discard pile for an O.T. angel and put it in play. Place on your angel. While it remains there, protect that Hero from opponents’ Dominants and has Site access.

Since the search is nonoptional, you still have to search.

Technically correct.  However, if you just tell your opponent that you don't have any more angels in your deck, they probably will save you the time by telling you to not bother shuffling.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 28, 2011, 03:21:30 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on December 27, 2011, 11:48:55 PM

Since the search is nonoptional, you still have to search.

Technically correct.  However, if you just tell your opponent that you don't have any more angels in your deck, they probably will save you the time by telling you to not bother shuffling.

I'd argue that in any tournament games (at least at State level and above), the shuffle is obligatory and should be carried out regardless of how much the participants in a game don't want to waste time by shuffling.

I agree, with cards like Susanna, Divination and Invoking Terror that can change the order of your deck, if there is a non-optional search, in a tournament match there should be shuffling.

I'd argue that in any tournament games (at least at State level and above), the shuffle is obligatory

If there are any known cards in the deck (ie. something put on the bottom, or Susanna putting stuff in certain order), then CA is totally right.  But if your deck is already shuffled and you don't have any angels, then shuffling again serves NO purpose other than wasting time.  If I was judging your tournament, I would encourage you NOT to shuffle an already randomized deck.

I think it's unfair for there not to be an established precedent there.

There is precedent.  There have been several times this has come up on the forum.  A couple threads have even been recent.  I (and other elders I think) have consistently given the same answer that I've given in this thread.

Fair enough. My only problem with that is that it would be extremely easy to abuse. If someone wants to shuffle their deck (via ability) to stall, they can simply carry out the ability that causes the shuffle and feign ignorance to not having X card in deck.

Well the extra time it takes to shuffle the deck (even in early game) could potentially change the outcome of the game. Slightly, but possibly.

In lower level play, I don't think it matters that much.  However, in higher play, there should be a mandatory something.


Thinking about this some, I think that the search/shuffle could be placed under the same umbrella as cutting a deck.

oh yes it can cough jds cough waste about 15 minutes of every game with shuffling

Hey, let's not name names.  Justin's a great player, and some want a better shuffle than others.

I think that's moot considering the time limitations on playing are so generous you can easily stall out a game in just a few turns without violating the letter of the law.

I know that massive time wasting is a violation of common courtesy rules, but is there actually an established rule on stalling. I know alot of other compettive activities I have engaged in have time limits on moves/answeringquestions and its acceptable to stall until the end and encouraged if you know the answer right off the bat, like in Bible quizzing back in the day