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Do the scripture reference for either of those cards indicate they involved music?

These are a little bit sketch. I think you have good merit for Freedom! because the Bible specifically talks about singing, and I'd support having it involve music, but not ACiB since there's an assumption involved.

I don't see anything musical here.

And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. Exodus 12:37 (King James Version)

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The verse is from later during the exodus. If it were from right when they left Egypt you could sustain the argument, but the card depicts a moment long after the initial jubilation.

Also there is precedent from musicians.  No where in David's verse on any of his cards indicate that he is a musician.  Likewise with Mosese and several others.  Yet we consider all of them to be musicians.  The card feedom seems to be refering to the event of the exodus.  That event included music.

We know David/Moses were musicians because we have a record of their music. Some verses on various Pharoahs or Kings may not specifically reference the civilizations they hail from, but that doesn't mean we don't consider them to be from that civilization. As Pol stated, if the verse was from an earlier point and described the music associated with the Exodus, there would most certainly be a stronger case. However, there needs to be a point where we can draw a line. Taking Egypt's Wealth also describes an event associated with the Exodus, should that be musical? How about Pillar of a Cloud or Drowning Pharaoh's Army? Since the concept of Freedom isn't inherently musical, and the verse on it is not a song or Psalm and doesn't reference anything musical, I really don't think there's a strong enough case here.

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.  Exodus 15:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

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In light of the scripture and art for Jubilee, it makes sense that it's defined as "involving music".  Wouldn't you agree?

Ok, I agree that a part of the Exodus could be considerd to IM. so I guess the real questoin is what part of the exodus does Freedom! Represent?

I would say the part where they traveled from Rameses to Succoth...

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 05:14:57 PM

I would say the part where they traveled from Rameses to Succoth...

Is that a serious answer or a flippant one?  I honestly cannot tell.

Kind of both. I just read it off of the Scripture verse, which decribed that journey.

Quote from: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 04:13:03 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on February 10, 2011, 03:30:07 PM

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Quote from: Bible

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.  Exodus 15:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

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In light of the scripture and art for Jubilee, it makes sense that it's defined as "involving music".  Wouldn't you agree?

But then how does a card like this make sense?

Scripture quote:

Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.

If I recall correctly, Bow and Arrow is from the Song of the Bow. Any enhancement with a verse from a song or Psalm has always been ruled to involve music.


I don't know where that premise came from. IMO, if a card depicts music being played it is musical, and if the scripture reference refers to music it is musical. Freedom! does neither.


1. I would say yes.
2. Maybe, but there are no instruments depicted on the card, and the scripture verse on the card says nothing about music.
3. I couldn't answer that, as I did not create the card.
4. See #3

I would posit that for a card to be musical, it either has to A) Have a verse from a song/Psalm B) Refer to songs, singing, or playing instruments or C) Depict musical instruments being played. I see no evidence that Freedom! qualifies as any of those.

Quote

I would posit that for a card to be musical, it either has to A) Have a verse from a song/Psalm B) Refer to songs, singing, or playing instruments or C) Depict musical instruments being played. I see no evidence that Freedom! qualifies as any of those.

But the redemption phrase is not "musical", it is "Involves Music".  If Freedom! represents the part of the exodus where the Israelite's are leaving Egypt up to the Wilderness, that event involved music.  The only way I can logically see that Freedom! does not involve music is if Freedom! does not represent the Exodus.  If it doesn't I would like to know what it does represent.

  first we need to figure out what it represents before we come to a conclusion on whether or not it involves music.

IMHO, I think it's a stretch to claim any card that is part of an event that may have involved music at some point during the event is Involving Music. You'd end up with cards like Deluge of Rain that are suddenly Involving Music because someone on the ark undoubtedly sang in the rain. If there was a "Singing in the Rain" card, by all means give it the Involves Music identifier, but a card that represents one part or one aspect or one singular event/person from a time shouldn't automatically receive that identifier (or any identifier, really) unless it can be shown that they/it were/was directly involved in the music. Burial Involving Music? Funeral dirges, ftw. Wedding Parties totally Involve Music, too.

But unlike those cards the singing in the Exodus event actually has scriptural reference.  Exodus 15:1 says they sang.  Please do not twist my words, I am asking for cards representing events that have scripture showing there was music involved be classified as music being involved.  If not I propose that we change the definition because if events "Involving Music" are considered not "Involving Music" then its really going to be confusing.

***Update***

On reconsideration Wedding Party should be listed as "Including Music".  Jewish Tradition suggests that there is singing and dancing at the marriage ceremony.  We already go to extra biblical sources for other cards like St. Patrick.  Why can't Jewish tradition be enough to classify a jewish wedding as "Including Music"?

A multi-page discussion is not necessary.

The card title is not musical.
The card art does not depict music.
The verse does not describe a musical event.  The nearest such event described in Scripture is three chapters away.
The verse is not itself a song.  If the other Scripture were listed, it would be musical because Exodus 15 is known as The Song of Moses and Miriam.

These all seem like very reasonable criteria, and fairly easy to understand by most players.  They also allow a pretty broad range of cards to fall in their net, like Bow and Arrow, The Stars and Protection of Angels.  I don't think it's unreasonable to rule against a card that meets none of those criteria, and I don't think it indicates some major problem with the game or the rules to say so.

So you see, no multi-page discussion needed.  That's the whole thing in two paragraphs.