Author Topic: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?  (Read 7537 times)

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2012, 12:13:32 AM »
0
As to whether  or not it can rescue from sites, I'll leave that for somebody more qualified to answer the specifics, and simply state the status quo ruling that it can.

I understand the status quo ruling. It's just wrong. Who even made you an elder? ;)

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2012, 12:14:59 AM »
0
I would argue that it can. The icon tells me that dominants are multibrigade. There is nothing in the rulebook that says one way or the other and I don't trust the REG.


Second point, there is nothing in the rules that says dominants NEED access. Sites only require heroes to have access, therefore does not apply to doms

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 12:16:05 AM »
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Trust me then when I tell you that Dominants do not have brigades.
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2012, 12:16:58 AM »
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And what of the second point? What would even require a dominant to have site access since sites only restrict heroes?

Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2012, 12:18:30 AM »
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And what of the second point? What would even require a dominant to have site access since sites only restrict heroes?

Find me a quote from the REG that says that sites only restrict heroes.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2012, 12:21:59 AM »
+3
This is the only quote in the REG or rulebook I can find that says anything about needing site access to rescue a soul and it specifically says heroes. I do not need to provide a quote that says it doesn't apply to dominants, as it specifically says heroes and nothing else.

Quote
Access to a Site

To rescue a Lost Soul in a site, a Hero must have access to the site. If a Hero does not have access to a Lost Soul, then the battle is a battle challenge. A Hero has access to a site if:

    the Hero’s icon box contains a matching brigade color in the icon box of the site, or

    a special ability gives the Hero access to the site, or

    An unoccupied site is placed in battle with the Hero and the icon box on the unoccupied site contains a matching brigade color in the icon box of the occupied site. The unoccupied site can be added at any time during the battle, but it must come from the player’s territory. If the Hero is defeated in battle, the site returns to the owner’s territory. The special ability on a multi-colored site is active only when the site is in battle and being used to give a Hero access to a site.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2012, 12:28:03 AM »
-7
If the only evidence you can find is that doms aren't mentioned (an oversight in the REG? never!), then I'm forced to conclude that we have a real case here.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2012, 12:33:10 AM »
+2
No you don't. Lampy says protect from evil cards, it doesn't say don't protect from good cards, So are they protected from good cards too? No. it's the same situation, it specifically says heroes, it doesn't not to state what it DOESN'T restrict when it specifically says what it restricts. It's in the REG, in the rulebook, and that's how we've been playing it. You have not even the smallest sliver of evidence to support that dominants need site access, you have no case, your argument has zero merit, and you are grasping at straws AGAIN. The rulebook does not need to list all the things a card does not protect from when it says what it does, it is perfectly safe to draw the conclusion that if it doesn't say it's protected than it's not protected. And if you want sites to have to specifically NOT restrict doms then you are, by direct correlation, demanding that EVERY SINGLE CARD THAT DOES ANYTHING to be errata'd to also say what it does not do.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2012, 12:39:36 AM »
+2
Trust me then when I tell you that Dominants do not have brigades.
+1
This is the only quote in the REG or rulebook I can find that says anything about needing site access to rescue a soul and it specifically says heroes.
+1

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2012, 12:53:44 AM »
0
Quote from: Rule Book
To rescue a Lost Soul in a site, a Hero must have access to the site.


Is that worded correctly? Does "a Hero" mean "rescuing hero"?

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2012, 01:17:26 AM »
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Quote from: Rule Book
To rescue a Lost Soul in a site, a Hero must have access to the site.


Is that worded correctly? Does "a Hero" mean "rescuing hero"?

Yes.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 10:59:34 AM »
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To the elders,

I am certainly aware of the status quo ruling. I am curious as to the rationale behind that ruling. Obviously Son of God can be restricted (by NT soul, by */4 souls), so why don't sites restrict it?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2012, 11:01:45 AM »
+1
Because it specifically says that sites restrict heroes, therefore things that it does not say are restricted are not restricted.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2012, 11:04:05 AM »
-5
Because it specifically says that sites restrict heroes, therefore things that it does not say are restricted are not restricted.

Son of God functions essentially as a hero using rescuer's choice rules. I don't see it as being any different. Are there rules in place for Son of God that are different than rules for hero that don't have to do with the fact that one is a dominant and one is a hero?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2012, 11:06:42 AM »
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If SOG functions essentially as a hero than their is no reason that it shouldn't be able to rescue the NT only. No their aren't such rules as they would be unnecassary and redundant.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2012, 11:09:13 AM »
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If SOG functions essentially as a hero than their is no reason that it shouldn't be able to rescue the NT only. No their aren't such rules as they would be unnecassary and redundant.

Actually, there is, because the NT only specifies NT Hero. Son of God isn't an NT Hero.

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2012, 11:10:22 AM »
+4
Because it specifically says that sites restrict heroes, therefore things that it does not say are restricted are not restricted.

Son of God functions essentially as a hero using rescuer's choice rules. I don't see it as being any different. Are there rules in place for Son of God that are different than rules for hero that don't have to do with the fact that one is a dominant and one is a hero?
Yeah.
-Heroes have to make a rescue attempt
-Heroes are blocked by EC's
-Heroes are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CARD TYPE

This is like saying Grapes and ANB should have the same rules applied to them because they both shuffle.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2012, 11:11:53 AM »
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Because it specifically says that sites restrict heroes, therefore things that it does not say are restricted are not restricted.

Son of God functions essentially as a hero using rescuer's choice rules. I don't see it as being any different. Are there rules in place for Son of God that are different than rules for hero that don't have to do with the fact that one is a dominant and one is a hero?
Yeah.
-Heroes have to make a rescue attempt
-Heroes are blocked by EC's
-Heroes are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CARD TYPE

This is like saying Grapes and ANB should have the same rules applied to them because they both shuffle.

The root question I am asking is what makes a rescue different when it is by a hero vs. by a dominant?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2012, 11:12:12 AM »
+1
If SOG functions essentially as a hero than their is no reason that it shouldn't be able to rescue the NT only. No their aren't such rules as they would be unnecassary and redundant.

Actually, there is, because the NT only specifies NT Hero. Son of God isn't an NT Hero.
And sites only specifies heroes, which SOG is not. What is so hard about this?

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2012, 11:14:09 AM »
+6
To the elders,

I am certainly aware of the status quo ruling. I am curious as to the rationale behind that ruling. Obviously Son of God can be restricted (by NT soul, by */4 souls), so why don't sites restrict it?

There is no rule that says "Lost Souls in Sites can only be rescued by Heroes with access to that site". The only rule given is that in order for a Hero to rescue a LS in a site, that hero must have access to the site.

NT and */4 stop SoG via a Protect ability. Sites do not have any sort of inherent protect ability.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2012, 11:19:08 AM »
0
If SOG functions essentially as a hero than their is no reason that it shouldn't be able to rescue the NT only. No their aren't such rules as they would be unnecassary and redundant.

Actually, there is, because the NT only specifies NT Hero. Son of God isn't an NT Hero.
And sites only specifies heroes, which SOG is not. What is so hard about this?

That rule has been in place under the assumption that SoG can't be restricted. We have now determined it can be ( to be fair we did awhile ago but I hadn't thought about sites ). Therefore, I think we seriously need to revisit if SoG should be able to rescue a soul from a site. I am trying to make the game more consistent. It's pretty inconsistent to have different rules for the same function between different card types. Wouldn't it be easier if you just said "You can't rescue from sites unless your card has the same brigade as the site". It would be more consistent and easier to explain.

To the elders,

I am certainly aware of the status quo ruling. I am curious as to the rationale behind that ruling. Obviously Son of God can be restricted (by NT soul, by */4 souls), so why don't sites restrict it?

There is no rule that says "Lost Souls in Sites can only be rescued by Heroes with access to that site". The only rule given is that in order for a Hero to rescue a LS in a site, that hero must have access to the site.

NT and */4 stop SoG via a Protect ability. Sites do not have any sort of inherent protect ability.

I'm pretty sure 90% of this forum would suggest the first rule you posted in this response was actually the rule. I realize that it is not the rule, but that's how pretty much everyone states it.

How don't sites have an inherent protect ability? Game rule as stated grants them an inherent protect ability. There's no reason why that shouldn't extend to dominants (other than arbitrarily believing old language left over from Womens, which seems stupid seeing how much inconsistent language and poorly expressed rules we have from olden times still).

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2012, 11:22:34 AM »
+1
No you don't. Lampy says protect from evil cards, it doesn't say don't protect from good cards, So are they protected from good cards too? No. it's the same situation, it specifically says heroes, it doesn't not to state what it DOESN'T restrict when it specifically says what it restricts. It's in the REG, in the rulebook, and that's how we've been playing it. You have not even the smallest sliver of evidence to support that dominants need site access, you have no case, your argument has zero merit, and you are grasping at straws AGAIN. The rulebook does not need to list all the things a card does not protect from when it says what it does, it is perfectly safe to draw the conclusion that if it doesn't say it's protected than it's not protected. And if you want sites to have to specifically NOT restrict doms then you are, by direct correlation, demanding that EVERY SINGLE CARD THAT DOES ANYTHING to be errata'd to also say what it does not do.

You know what Alec, I enjoy "grasping for straws" and arguing for obscure rulings and arguing against the status quo. I think it helps force people who pay attention to these sorts of threads to reexamine different rules and rulings and look at why some rules are the way they are. You, yourself, learned something in this thread by discovering that dominants and fortresses don't have brigades, which you apparently believed, considering how vehemently you argued that they did. Last time, in the Split Altar thread, we actually ended up uncovering a pretty huge inconsistency with the rules, and I'd call that a major victory, even if the Elders have refused to do anything about it. So if I want to argue for rulings like this, I'll do it, because it's certainly not doing any harm to the forum, and every once in a while some visible good comes of it. I'm sorry if it annoys you, but you're free to just ignore my posts if they really bother you so much you feel the need to argue with me half the time I post.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2012, 11:25:53 AM »
+2
In the split altar thread you had a point, one that was ignored and that's been beaten to death, but you had one. In this thread you don't. I didn't believe SOG had brigades before hand. That was a stale tactic until I could find better evidence, which I did in that sites only restrict heroes not dominants.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2012, 11:28:04 AM »
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In the split altar thread you had a point, one that was ignored and that's been beaten to death, but you had one. In this thread you don't. I didn't believe SOG had brigades before hand. That was a stale tactic until I could find better evidence, which I did in that sites only restrict heroes not dominants.

So what you were doing was arguing just to argue, even though you didn't really believe in the argument you were trying to present? Isn't that more-or-less the thing I do that makes you so angry?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2012, 11:31:12 AM »
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I was stalling until I could find better evidence, although I didn't think that dominants had brigades I also didn't inherently think they didn't. I wasn't using something I knew was false I was using something that was flimsy but might have worked, I didn't believe it was going to but it was worth a shot. This is different from bringing up a resolved beaten to death issue that already has several rulings and a cult following.

 


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