Cactus Game Design Message Boards

One of us has an incorrect understanding of Ignore, and it may very well be me. However, iIrc, Ignore does four things: protects the battlefield from entry by ignored cards, and then the rest I'm hazy on but I'm pretty sure the battle-winning part of Ignore does target. If none of the four functions of Ignore actually target anyone than your stance on CBIg is the same as mine for all practical purposes except that Hating the Light and Large Tree would not work in battle after an Ignore has been played (so long as the Golgotha-user remembers to *always* load it up before blocking).

On a related note, is the CBIg status granted by Golgotha contingent on the card remaining placed on the site? As in, if the card is removed, does the CBIg status fade away? I don't think this affects or is affected by the definition of CBIg discussion going on, so I figured it was safe to ask now.

I know this was asked in another thread (or earlier in this one, I don't know for sure), but iirc it never got a concrete answer either way.

Yes. The colon on Golgotha is the new, concise way of saying "while this (or in this case, that) card remains,..."

Thus,
"Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored."

is equivalent to:

"Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha. While that card remains, N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored."

Okay. The next logical step then is to ask: If my opponent blocks my TGT hero with a Golgotha'd EC and I add Dragon Raid to battle and discard the card, is their EC now ignored, or would I have to then play something like NNfS to ignore them again?

Ignore is an ongoing ability, and characters that weren't ignored can be ignored if something changes. For example, if I attack with Zebulun, and you block me with a */6 guy, and I am able to reduce my hand to 5, then I am now ignoring you. So in my interpretation, if you are able to get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha, than TGT would start ignoring that EC, and putting another enhancement on Golgotha wouldn't undo that. But I think there are plenty of ways to prevent that from happening.

Like I have said, in-battle ignore is not the problem, as there are still a variety of ways ignores can be negated, or other ways for the EC to win the battle (Belshazzar's Banquet, et. al.) in addition to a lot of useful abilities that you have infinite initiative to use (Confusion, side battle cards, sitelock cards, etc.). So it has always been my opinion that in-battle ignore is powerful but can come at a great cost. I remember once in a T2 game when my opponent used Burning Incense against my guy who would otherwise have been winning, so I had initiative to play a bunch of False Peace's to get Burial and a few other dominants, and then Momentum Change (to get everything back) and that play helped me win the next few of my battles on offense. And if you in-battle ignore a Pale Green guy, you'd better be darn sure your opponent doesn't have Confusion, unless you already have/have used Son of God, otherwise that could be a costly battle winner. So under either interpretation, Golgotha is not useless, and it might actually be good that it doesn't shut down ignores completely (especially for offenses like Genesis and Royalty, which often depend on in-battle ignores).

the problem with that is you are trying to make a judgement based on the way you want things to be, not the way they are.

But something so easy as just adding DR to battle? That's insane.

So in my interpretation, if you are able to get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha, than TGT would start ignoring that EC, and putting another enhancement on Golgotha wouldn't undo that.

That's not what the article on Golgotha at Cactus says:

"Once Golgotha is set up, it is not that easy to avoid its effect.  If you try to use DragonRaid or some other method to discard the evil card on Golgotha, the "anytime during battle" ability on Golgotha will allow your opponent to put that skull icon card right back on the site.  It applies to N.T. evil characters owned by any player, so its effect is far-reaching, especially in multi-player."

Are you saying this is false? That they lied to us, and Dragon Raid would successfully stop Golgotha, contrary to what the article explaining Golgotha says? The Anytime during battle part is pointless This makes not a cent. Help to understand pleez?

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 13, 2010, 05:14:59 PM

But then, like I said, all ignores, pre-block and post-block are completely shut down by Golgotha.

And if it is ruled the way you are talking, then simply adding DR to any TGT deck will completely neuter Golgotha (which was totally designed to stop TGT).

It will not neuter Golgotha, just make it so that it only stops pre-block ignore, which is what it was designed to stop. As I've said a few times, once the EC is in battle, there are plenty of ways to make an ignorer not only not win the battle, but also suffer the consequences of using an ignore ability. Not only that, but DR is not that hard to get rid of, since it is OT. You can use Land Dispute, Danites Attack, or any card that discards a Site. Or like RDT said, you can use Pergamum, which goes well with Golgotha and Caesarea Phillipi.

As for the article, it's not necessarily a lie, as you CAN do exactly what it says: put a skull icon card right back on to the site...it says nothing about whether that will work to undo the ignore.  But seriously, it was written before anyone had an idea of how Cannot be Ignored would work exactly, which is why we are still debating it now.

I'm not making a judgment at all.  I specifically said I was stating a preference, NOT making a ruling.

i did not say ruling. i said a judgement. of reasoning. reasoning that cards should work a certain way to make them good/better is not the same as reasoning that cards should work the way as printed.

"Once Golgotha is set up, it is not that easy to avoid its effect.  If you try to use DragonRaid or some other method to discard the evil card on Golgotha, the "anytime during battle" ability on Golgotha will allow your opponent to put that skull icon card right back on the site.  It applies to N.T. evil characters owned by any player, so its effect is far-reaching, especially in multi-player."

As for the article, it's not necessarily a lie, as you CAN do exactly what it says: put a skull icon card right back on to the site...it says nothing about whether that will work to undo the ignore.  But seriously, it was written before anyone had an idea of how Cannot be Ignored would work exactly, which is why we are still debating it now.

So, regardless of the final ruling, what's the current ruling of this that I should use at the tourney I'm hosting this Saturday?

I've got this crazy awesome solution, play Pergamum with your Golgatha.......

Stop being so practical.  We're trying to have an argument.

Yeah, maybe that should have been figured out years ago when Defiant was printed, or at least when Large Tree was printed.

I thought we DID have it figured out.  I didn't see how it could be ruled any other way.  I never knew there could even be a question about it.  Apparently a couple playtesters don't agree with me.  We're waiting on a Rob ruling.

Yeah, that's pretty much everything I've been saying on this thread, but it's good to hear another concurring voice.

So, I strongly believe CBIgnored is an ability of its own, and therefore should not be ruled by the same rules as protect. If people do so, then CBIgnored is completely useless.

It's not completely useless as a protect, in fact it's completely overpowered if it ISN'T a protect. The way you guys want to rule it, not only does it interrupt without interrupting, it negates without negating. My "Ignore you. CBN" enhancement is, effectively, negated by you putting a skull icon card on Golgotha. Protection at least follows the rules of "if you don't interrupt/negate it then you can't undo/protect/save your character from it" whereas Golgotha, the way you're saying it should be treated, gets around any and every ignore card, regardless of wording, usage, or initiative. That seems far too OP to me.

I fail to see how Dust and Ashes help....

Oh, do you mean Benedictus? Yeah. I'm just disappointed I couldn't get that musician custom card for my t2....