Author Topic: Sites and Lost Souls (Read 11606 times)

Korunks · « **Reply #50 on:** October 12, 2010, 05:02:18 PM »

This situation is more complicated than that. It has never been defined the gaining CBI after an ignore has happened stops the ignore. Especially since another elder ruled differently:

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 08, 2010, 11:59:49 AM

Cannot be Ignored allows the EC to block in spite of an ability that would otherwise ignore him being active. This is similar to how cannot be negated allows an ability to activate in spite of an ability that would otherwise negate it being active.

However, if a character currently in battle is being ignored, giving it a cannot be ignored ability at that point does nothing, unless the current ignore is interrupted.

As to whether CBIg is a protect, I'm not entirely sure. I will let other elders comment on that one.

So please do not act like this is clean cut and decided which it isn't.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #51 on:** October 12, 2010, 05:11:54 PM »

Gabe said that CBIgnore was it's own ability, which I really don't understand, but...

browarod · « **Reply #52 on:** October 12, 2010, 05:23:16 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 12, 2010, 05:11:54 PM

Gabe said that CBIgnore was it's own ability, which I really don't understand, but...

Well, maybe he should come here and explain it then

Smokey · « **Reply #53 on:** October 12, 2010, 05:54:51 PM »

Ignore isn't considered harm, it doesn't make sense that you can protect yourself from something that isn't harming you.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 12, 2010, 05:11:54 PM

Gabe said that CBIgnore was it's own ability, which I really don't understand, but...

Seems about right to me.

Bryon · « **Reply #54 on:** October 12, 2010, 06:07:09 PM »

CBI means you can't be ignored no matter what.

CBN means it can't be negated no matter what. Same reasoning goes for CBP and CBI.

All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.

browarod · « **Reply #55 on:** October 12, 2010, 06:17:25 PM »

Except that playing Faith in Our High Priest after I've negated AoC (not promo) played on your John doesn't retroactively grant AoC CBN status, so why would any card that grants CBIg do such?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #56 on:** October 12, 2010, 06:20:08 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on October 12, 2010, 06:07:09 PM

All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.

So, what your saying is, TGT is more alive and dominant than it was BEFORE Disciples. Oh joy.

browarod · « **Reply #57 on:** October 12, 2010, 06:22:01 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 12, 2010, 06:20:08 PM

Quote from: Bryon on October 12, 2010, 06:07:09 PM
All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.
So, what your saying is, TGT is more alive and dominant than it was BEFORE Disciples. Oh joy.

Um, that's not how I read what he said. Bryon said CBIg works no matter what, including retroactively apparently, so Golgotha can protect from ignore both pre-battle and in battle. That's what I got out of it, at least. I hope I'm misunderstanding, though, since otherwise TGT (ignore, at least) is completely and totally destroyed.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #58 on:** October 12, 2010, 06:22:07 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 12, 2010, 06:17:25 PM

Except that playing Faith in Our High Priest after I've negated AoC (not promo) played on your John doesn't retroactively grant AoC CBN status, so why would any card that grants CBIg do such?

Thanks, I was about to use an eerily similar example.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #59 on:** October 12, 2010, 06:23:01 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 12, 2010, 06:22:01 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 12, 2010, 06:20:08 PM
Quote from: Bryon on October 12, 2010, 06:07:09 PM
All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.
So, what your saying is, TGT is more alive and dominant than it was BEFORE Disciples. Oh joy.
Um, that's not how I read what he said. Bryon said CBIg works no matter what, including retroactively apparently, so Golgotha can protect from ignore both pre-battle and in battle. That's what I got out of it, at least.

I missed the "other," sorry.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #60 on:** October 12, 2010, 08:32:00 PM »

ok i can see this going...

CBIg works even after ignore in battle because we say so because we want to implement the new errata that Golgotha can only be used once in the turn and that DragonRaid doesnt negate the ignore after it discards the EE...im so confused.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #61 on:** October 13, 2010, 06:38:47 AM »

It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #62 on:** October 13, 2010, 10:17:20 AM »

When everyone gets this figured out- lemme know. k

Korunks · « **Reply #63 on:** October 13, 2010, 10:21:18 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on October 13, 2010, 10:17:20 AM

When everyone gets this figured out- lemme know. k

Best I can Tell we have One Elder who says that the CBI works recursively(Since Gabe has not posted here I am only counting Bryon) and one who says it does not work recursively, Professoralstad. So right now it is any one's guess. We need moar elder input.

browarod · « **Reply #64 on:** October 13, 2010, 11:48:36 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 06:38:47 AM

It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.

You keep telling us what it's NOT, yet you and Bryon have yet to explain what it IS. Precedent says that all "Cannot be..." are protects so the burden of proof rests on you to say why it isn't that and what it really is. Why is "Cannot be ignored" being treated differently than any other "Cannot be"? Why does ignore receive special treatment over even "Cannot be negated"?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #65 on:** October 13, 2010, 12:18:49 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 13, 2010, 11:48:36 AM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 06:38:47 AM
It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.
You keep telling us what it's NOT, yet you and Bryon have yet to explain what it IS. Precedent says that all "Cannot be..." are protects so the burden of proof rests on you to say why it isn't that and what it really is. Why is "Cannot be ignored" being treated differently than any other "Cannot be"? Why does ignore receive special treatment over even "Cannot be negated"?

'
It is its own ability. Just because it has "cannot be" in it doesn't mean it's a protect. The burden of proof does not rest on me anymore since Bryon said exactly that, and he's a top elder. Unfortunately, the Professor said otherwise, so the real question now is waiting on a consensus of elders.

browarod · « **Reply #66 on:** October 13, 2010, 12:35:22 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 12:18:49 PM

Quote from: browarod on October 13, 2010, 11:48:36 AM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 06:38:47 AM
It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.
You keep telling us what it's NOT, yet you and Bryon have yet to explain what it IS. Precedent says that all "Cannot be..." are protects so the burden of proof rests on you to say why it isn't that and what it really is. Why is "Cannot be ignored" being treated differently than any other "Cannot be"? Why does ignore receive special treatment over even "Cannot be negated"?
'
It is its own ability. Just because it has "cannot be" in it doesn't mean it's a protect. The burden of proof does not rest on me anymore since Bryon said exactly that, and he's a top elder. Unfortunately, the Professor said otherwise, so the real question now is waiting on a consensus of elders.

All other "cannot be" abilities are protects, none are "their own abilities", which is why it's so strange that this one isn't. You (see definition of "you" below) still have not even mentioned the why yet. If it makes so much sense to you, then just tell us why we suddenly have an ability that behaves differently than any other ability in the game despite its wording. It seems like it would be better to keep consistency even if it means toning down one card (which by itself is also worth it since Golgotha is OP even if CBIg IS a protect, let alone if it's this newfangled ability that seems more complicated than it's worth). Also, the "you" in this and my previous post means you (Pol) and/or Bryon, not necessarily you (Pol) specifically, sorry for the confusion.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #67 on:** October 13, 2010, 12:43:42 PM »

It's not (Cannot Be) Ignored, it's (Cannot Be Ignored). Are you saying "place in a territory," "place in opponent's Land of Bondage," and "place beneath deck" are all the same kind of ability just because they all have "place?" The first is a place ability, the second is a Capture ability, and the last is a return ability. This isn't the first time Redemption has added a new type of ability, either.

Once you unwrap your mind around the pole of "Cannot be..." must necessarily be Protect, it makes a lot more sense.

And, imo, the way you're wanting to define it is more, not less complicated than the way Bryon and I are wanting to define it. Our way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored. Your way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored unless it was already ignored (which would not "tone down" Golgotha, it would make it almost entirely useless for anything but shuffle combos).

browarod · « **Reply #68 on:** October 13, 2010, 12:56:56 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 12:43:42 PM

It's not (Cannot Be) Ignored, it's (Cannot Be Ignored). Are you saying "place in a territory," "place in opponent's Land of Bondage," and "place beneath deck" are all the same kind of ability just because they all have "place?" The first is a place ability, the second is a Capture ability, and the last is a return ability. This isn't the first time Redemption has added a new type of ability, either.

Yes, I would classify them all as "place" abilities, see: High Places.

Once you unwrap your mind around the pole of "Cannot be..." must necessarily be Protect, it makes a lot more sense.

No, it really doesn't. There are no other instances of "Cannot be X" not being a protect, so it makes more sense for it to follow suite rather than create a new kind of ability.

And, imo, the way you're wanting to define it is more, not less complicated than the way Bryon and I are wanting to define it.

Maybe that's just it? Both sides "want to define" it a specific way.

Our way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored. Your way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored unless it was already ignored (which would not "tone down" Golgotha, it would make it almost entirely useless for anything but shuffle combos).

Cannot be negated means cannot be negated unless it was already negated, why is CBIg different? Making one card more useful should never be sufficient reason for a certain definition of a game mechanic/rule. You mentioned definitions earlier. The definition I stand by has precedence and is logical, yours is (possibly) simpler but creates exceptions and inconsistencies.

It is a game rule that an ignored character has infinite initiative but loses the battle unless they interrupt/negate the ignore ability. Golgotha and either of our definitions of CBIg do neither. So, it may not even matter the definition of CBIg in regards to Golgotha, it can't (by game rule) change the outcome of a battle with a hero ignoring an in-battle EC.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #69 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:05:16 PM »

For the record, my interpretation (which I thought was the agreed upon interpretation by the elders) states that if you are being ignored in battle, adding a "cannot be ignored" ability does not undo that. That is because when a character is in battle and someone plays No Need for Spices to ignore him, NNfS is actually targeting the character, not just the field of battle (which is what pre-block ignore does, thus why you can't be protected from it by cards that protect EC's from opponent's cards, like GoJ). So CBIg abilities allow you to block with an EC who would otherwise be ignored by TGT, but does not allow your EC in battle who is being ignored to suddenly become unignored. Just like the Faith in Our High Priest example. If you play a negatable enhancement, and your opponent negates it, playing FiOHP doesn't suddenly make it CBN.

I am of the opinion that CBIg is similar to a protect ability, because it does limit targets of post-block ignore, but it also does more than limit targets, since pre-block ignore doesn't target anyone. So I agree it functions like a mix of protect and cannot be negated types of abilities, which makes it its own type. I also disagree that Golgotha would be nearly useless for anything but recursion under my interpretation, as it would still stop exactly what it was designed to stop, pre-block ignore, but will often not affect post-block ignore, which IMO has never been a serious problem gameplaywise, as it may win battles, but it also gives your opponent infinite initiative, which turn out to be brutal for the ignorer.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #70 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:08:50 PM »

The problem with that interpretation is that you could get a pre-block Ignored character into battle, but he'd be Ignored upon entering battle.

browarod · « **Reply #71 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:10:56 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 01:08:50 PM

The problem with that interpretation is that you could get a pre-block Ignored character into battle, but he'd be Ignored upon entering battle.

Why? TGT doesn't change targets just because an EC enters battle.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #72 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:13:43 PM »

I attack with Jacob and play RTC, ignoring Gold. I put a Gold Enhancement on Golgotha and block with a Gold EC. Under Prof's interpretation, my EC would be allowed to enter battle via part of what he thinks CBIg does, but since my character was Ignored before he gained CBIg status, upon entering battle Jacob would be Ignoring him.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #73 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:18:29 PM »

^ I like that. If any other elders will support that I'm willing to give rewards/bribes

.

EDIT: That was directed to Pol's message.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #74 on:** October 13, 2010, 01:25:47 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 01:08:50 PM

The problem with that interpretation is that you could get a pre-block Ignored character into battle, but he'd be Ignored upon entering battle.

Not unless whatever is granting him CBIg status is somehow negated/no longer active. I'm only referring to cases where an ignore ability was targeting him in the first place. Cannot be ignored does restrict targets, but only in the case when an ignore is targeting a character (such as NNfS targeting the EC's of the selected brigade in battle). If I play NNfS against a character with Hating the Light placed on him, nothing in the current battle changes. But on the flipside, if I play Hating the Light on an EC after my opponent has played NNfS, nothing in the current battle changes.

Great, 3 new replies:

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 13, 2010, 01:13:43 PM

I attack with Jacob and play RTC, ignoring Gold. I put a Gold Enhancement on Golgotha and block with a Gold EC. Under Prof's interpretation, my EC would be allowed to enter battle via part of what he thinks CBIg does, but since my character was Ignored before he gained CBIg status, upon entering battle Jacob would be Ignoring him.

Your character was ignored, but was never targeted for ignore. That idea has been around since the question about whether Color Guard in a blue site allowed your big EC's to block Zebulun. It was ruled that even though your characters are immune, Zebulun isn't targeting them, he's targeting the battlefield, and the EC's can't enter. When that idea was proposed, I thought it might be a good way to get around PBI, but it was decided that that's the way it was. Once the EC enters battle, RTC would attempt to target him, but can't, because of the fact that a CBIg ability is active for that character. So the targeting the battlefield part of ignore didn't work. Then the targeting the character part of ignore didn't work. Thus the ignore doesn't work.

News:

Author Topic: Sites and Lost Souls (Read 11606 times)

Warrior_Monk

browarod

browarod

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Warrior_Monk

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browarod

browarod

Rawrlolsauce!