Author Topic: Sites and Lost Souls (Read 11605 times)

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #25 on:** October 07, 2010, 11:59:09 PM »

I think it's a way to get "cannot be ignored" to get around the "cannot be blocked by X" part of ignore (where X is whatever you're ignoring). Last I checked, that part didn't target the ECs (it targets the hero), so you can't be protected from it.

I don't have a problem with CBIg allowing an otherwise ignored EC to block, regardless of when the CBIg was activated. I don't think allowing a retroactive CBIg to effectively negate an ignore is the right way to handle it when the EC is already in battle.

browarod · « **Reply #26 on:** October 08, 2010, 01:09:49 AM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on October 07, 2010, 11:59:09 PM

I don't have a problem with CBIg allowing an otherwise ignored EC to block, regardless of when the CBIg was activated. I don't think allowing a retroactive CBIg to effectively negate an ignore is the right way to handle it when the EC is already in battle.

^This. Golgotha would still be perfectly usable to allow your X-brigade EC to block a TGT hero that is trying to ignore, without it being even more OP as to indirectly negate cards like Spices.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** October 08, 2010, 04:11:53 AM »

That's another possibility as to how "CBIg" works. All I know is that it is not just "protect from Ignore."

Master_Chi · « **Reply #28 on:** October 08, 2010, 10:00:39 AM »

RDT is right, even if you are ignoring someone and they become CBIg, they cannot be ignored in any way, any how, any why unless you get rid of Golgotha.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #29 on:** October 08, 2010, 11:59:49 AM »

Cannot be Ignored allows the EC to block in spite of an ability that would otherwise ignore him being active. This is similar to how cannot be negated allows an ability to activate in spite of an ability that would otherwise negate it being active.

However, if a character currently in battle is being ignored, giving it a cannot be ignored ability at that point does nothing, unless the current ignore is interrupted.

As to whether CBIg is a protect, I'm not entirely sure. I will let other elders comment on that one.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #30 on:** October 08, 2010, 01:51:37 PM »

The argument that an ignored character that gains the CBI ability can still be ignored makes no logical sense (which, I concede, is not always a priority in Redemption). It reminds me a little of the whole brouhaha over trying to indirectly negate CBN abilities, which led to the famous commandment "CBN means CBN." If a character "cannot be ignored," to turn around and say "yes, it can be ignored" creates a contradiction. It also leads to the commandments "CBI does not mean CBI."

This also creates questions for other cards. What if I play Hating the Light in battle, perhaps after drawing it with a SA? Can my EC still be ignored? Or apply to any other CBI enhancements (of which there are few now, but I could see more being made)? The whole argument seems IMO to be an attempt to prop up pre-block ignore by refusing to allow CBI cards to do what they were designed to do, one facet of which is to slow down pre-block ignore.

Hating the Light (Di)

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on your human Evil Character: This Evil Character cannot be ignored and is protected from capture, conversion, and shuffle. • Play As: Place on your human Evil Character: This Evil Character cannot be ignored. Protect this Evil Character from capture, conversion, and shuffle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: John 3:20 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #31 on:** October 08, 2010, 02:07:42 PM »

Quote

The whole argument seems IMO to be an attempt to prop up pre-block ignore by refusing to allow CBI cards to do what they were designed to do, one facet of which is to slow down pre-block ignore.

Actually, I think most of this is about using CBIg with characters already in battle. If you're already ignored in battle, CBIg shouldn't stop the ignore. Protects don't work like that. CBN/I/P doesn't work like that.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #32 on:** October 08, 2010, 06:50:23 PM »

I actually like the idea of Golgotha failing against ignores in battle. It allows you to block TGT or pre block ignore, which was the biggest complaint people were having ("You won't let me play cards!"). However, it doesn't totally kill the ignore strategy (RA with Jake + RTC, opponent uses Golgotha, blocks with a NT EC, I add D Raid to battle. You still get to play cards, I still get to ignore you. Win-win).

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #33 on:** October 08, 2010, 10:55:11 PM »

Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

Quote

I add D Raid to battle.

Since you discard my EE on Golgotha, does that negate it's ability?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #34 on:** October 08, 2010, 10:58:45 PM »

No,

However, the new cards are using the ":" to mean "While this card remains" So if no EE is there, even if the ability was activated no one is CBIg

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #35 on:** October 08, 2010, 11:06:30 PM »

It looks like a cost:effect ability to me. What are some other examples to point to your line of thinking?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #36 on:** October 08, 2010, 11:20:29 PM »

I don't have specific examples - I'm just basing that off of discussions we had during playtesting.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #37 on:** October 08, 2010, 11:31:24 PM »

Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability:Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha:N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

Cost:Effect

Master KChief · « **Reply #38 on:** October 08, 2010, 11:38:09 PM »

i believe there was a discussion about this with herods treachery awhile back.

browarod · « **Reply #39 on:** October 09, 2010, 12:04:04 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on October 08, 2010, 11:31:24 PM

Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability:Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha:N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

Cost:Effect

Regardless of what kind of ability it is, all abilities have a duration. Since this one doesn't specify (or if the colon is the specification), we assume the duration to be while the card remains.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #40 on:** October 09, 2010, 12:13:51 AM »

Why would we assume that? Cost/place card: Effect/cant be ignored. It doesnt say-

Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: While this card remains, N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

So after reading the Herod's Treachery post again...

Quote

i believe there was a discussion about this with herods treachery awhile back.

Herod’s Treachery (TP)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Herod. That Herod may use evil Enhancements regardless of brigade. You may discard this card to force X Heroes to withdraw from battle.

Man, I still dont agree with that ruling. but i didnt see relevence with the colon in that thread except the withdraw is dependent on the place ability. (still dont agree)

so, the cant be ignore is dependent upon the place ability? yes
That includes while the place card remains? not so sure

browarod · « **Reply #41 on:** October 09, 2010, 01:38:57 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on October 09, 2010, 12:13:51 AM

Why would we assume that?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would assume that because the only other option is indefinitely, and that would be even more broken. The protection from ignore starts with the placing of the Skull icon card, so it would seem to be logical that it would end with the removal of said Skull icon card.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #42 on:** October 09, 2010, 01:44:31 AM »

Quote

Since this one doesn't specify (or if the colon is the specification), we assume the duration to be while the card remains.

Since it doesnt say the duration, should we assume its until the end of the phase?

browarod · « **Reply #43 on:** October 09, 2010, 01:46:41 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on October 09, 2010, 01:44:31 AM

Since it doesnt say the duration, should we assume its until the end of the phase?

Quote from: browarod on October 09, 2010, 01:38:57 AM

The protection from ignore starts with the placing of the Skull icon card, so it would seem to be logical that it would end with the removal of said Skull icon card.

Considering all other place abilities end when the place card is removed, I don't see why this should be treated any differently.

Master KChief · « **Reply #44 on:** October 09, 2010, 01:50:31 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on October 09, 2010, 12:13:51 AM

Why would we assume that? Cost/place card: Effect/cant be ignored. It doesnt say-

Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: While this card remains, N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

So after reading the Herod's Treachery post again...
Quote
i believe there was a discussion about this with herods treachery awhile back.
Herod’s Treachery (TP)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Herod. That Herod may use evil Enhancements regardless of brigade. You may discard this card to force X Heroes to withdraw from battle.

Man, I still dont agree with that ruling. but i didnt see relevence with the colon in that thread except the withdraw is dependent on the place ability. (still dont agree)

so, the cant be ignore is dependent upon the place ability? yes
That includes while the place card remains? not so sure

mind linking us the thread? im fairly certain bryon or sir no commented that the card only worked while it remained, like all place cards do.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #45 on:** October 09, 2010, 01:55:13 AM »

Quote

Considering all other place abilities end when the place card is removed, I don't see why this should be treated any differently.

I agree with that.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 12, 2010, 02:34:02 PM »

Sorry to bring this thread up after 3 days! So does cannot be ignored only stop pre-ignore and you can still be ignored in battle, or does it mean your character cannot be ignored no matter when you are trying to ignore it?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #47 on:** October 12, 2010, 03:03:03 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on October 12, 2010, 02:34:02 PM

Sorry to bring this thread up after 3 days! So does cannot be ignored only stop pre-ignore and you can still be ignored in battle, or does it mean your character cannot be ignored no matter when you are trying to ignore it?

Gabe ruled it as not being able to be ignored no matter what.

Korunks · « **Reply #48 on:** October 12, 2010, 03:42:57 PM »

Well since Gabe is only 1 elder that is not a definitive ruling. Can we get some elder input, even if the issues is still being debated?

Smokey · « **Reply #49 on:** October 12, 2010, 04:35:15 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on October 12, 2010, 03:42:57 PM

Well since Gabe is only 1 elder that is not a definitive ruling. Can we get some elder input, even if the issues is still being debated?

Cannot be ignored means cannot be ignored, you don't need an elder to tell you that.

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Author Topic: Sites and Lost Souls (Read 11605 times)

browarod

Rawrlolsauce!

browarod

browarod

browarod

Warrior_Monk