Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Because capture only applies to characters, whereas convert applies to many different types of cards.

Doubt, Madness and Deafening Spirit turn themselves into ECs when played, even though Madness is the only one with "convert" language.

Well most convert cards save for Redemption and Madness (which converts itself) only convert cards into the same type - character to character, enhancement to enhancement - and none of them can convert cards into lost souls, because if they did, they would be called captures, right?

Well most convert cards save for Redemption and Madness (which converts itself) only convert cards into the same type - character to character, enhancement to enhancement - and none of them can convert cards into lost souls, because if they did, they would be called captures, right?

well, that's not really correct, because while Hero and Evil Character are both a type of character, they are separate card types.  Same with Enhancements.  It is for this reason that, even when allowing extra brigades to be played, an evil Enhancement can never be played on a Hero, nor a good Enhancement on an Evil Character.  Similarly, a Curse is an "evil Covenant" but they are two different card types, when all is said and done.

I would even consider capture to be an ability that "converts" a card into a Lost Soul, and therefore a special convert ability, but for gameplay's sake (and out sanity), it makes more sense to have two separate abilities with their own language and their own rules.  Sort of like how discard and remove are similar, or protect/immune/ignore are similar, but it works better to keep them separate than try to mash them together somehow.

but a Lost and Redeemed souls ARE the same type of card.

They actually are not, because none of the cards that target Lost Souls can affect a Redeemed Soul, and Redeemed Souls specifically are listed in the rules as the object of tracking points and victory in the game.

Redeemed Souls are a "special" type that do not have their own icons and so forth, but emerge as a part of gameplay and so have their own rules.  The other "special" type is a Captured Character, which has different rules than a regular character but does not have its own icons and other stuff that normally comes on the face of a card.

Hey,

Return is not an ability that I am aware of.  Where can I see that defined?

Return is an ability that has been around since the beginning of the game (Chains has a return ability and was in the A/B starter decks).  We just haven't recognized it's existence up until now.  It is defined in Fall 09 REG.

So you're saying that the general rule that Lost Souls are placed in your Land of Bondage is not what you would consider a game rule?

Is that a game rule or a rule of thumb?  It sounds like a rule of thumb to me.  If it's not in the rulebook or REG it's not a game rule. 

What if the lost soul that gets falling away'd was never in *your* LOB? Can you "return" something to a place it's never been?

You can return something to a place it's never been.

Well, the normal category for abilities that change a card from one type to another is convert.

Copy can turn an enhancement into a character (innumerable).  Capture can turn a Hero into a Captured Hero (Net).  Return can turn Captured Hero into a Hero (Covenant of Palestine).  And Convert can turn an Evil Character into a Hero (Baptism).  Changing card type is not limited to convert abilities.

Does any one else notice a trend lately? Every time a question like this comes up we now delve into whether some action has to be defined by a game rule or it does nothing.  Whatever happened to simple straightforward rules?  The card says when placed, it seems convoluted to try define "place" beyond the physical act.  When I place the card in my land of Bondage, I place it in my land of bondage.  Not everything requires 8 pages of debate over semantics.

The Other Tim addressed this very well but I will add a few comments to what he said.  We originally tried to use "simple straightforward rules" but as the card base and complexity of Redemption grew the simple straightforward rules started to cause contradictions and confusion.  We did a very poor job of wording cards back in the day, and because cactus doesn't cycle sets, ban cards, or have a massive errata list our only option to address the poorly worded cards is by adding some complexity to the rules.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly