Author Topic: Site remove LS  (Read 4948 times)

Offline The Guardian

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Site remove LS
« on: August 31, 2009, 06:24:08 PM »
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If the Site Remove LS is redeemed and then has Falling Away played on it, does the ability activate again?


Site Remove LS
"When you place this card in your land of bondage you may remove a Lost Soul from one of your sites."
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The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 06:26:03 PM »
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To my knowledge, yes.

Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 07:32:54 PM »
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+1

Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 11:03:28 PM »
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I've done this before, so +1
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FresnoRedemption

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 02:51:38 AM »
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+1 . I have likewise done it before (though in a teams game, because I don't actually own Falling Away).

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 12:03:37 PM »
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I don't see why it wouldn't. You are placing it in your Land of Bondage after you use Falling Away, so the condition is met.
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browarod

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2009, 03:13:15 PM »
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The ruling for this (I believe) is similar to that of the LS's that have effects when they are drawn. If they get drawn and then shuffled, their effects will activate again next time they're drawn.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 07:05:19 PM »
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Hey,

I really wish that card didn't say "place."  Maybe we could give it play as so that it works when it "Enters a Land of Bondage..."

As it is currently worded, it seems to be the same issue as exchanging the exchanger with a "when you place this lost soul into a site" lost soul.  In the exchange example, I believe you are exchanging not placing.  And in this case you would be returning not placing.  So if I was making a ruling at a tournament tomorrow I would say the ability does not activate again.  But if I remember correctly, the exchange issue was never really resolved.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 07:11:27 PM »
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Hey,

I really wish that card didn't say "place."  Maybe we could give it play as so that it works when it "Enters a Land of Bondage..."

As it is currently worded, it seems to be the same issue as exchanging the exchanger with a "when you place this lost soul into a site" lost soul.  In the exchange example, I believe you are exchanging not placing.  And in this case you would be returning not placing.  So if I was making a ruling at a tournament tomorrow I would say the ability does not activate again.  But if I remember correctly, the exchange issue was never really resolved.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

That's the thing I was wondering about and the reason I posted--to see if anyone else had that feeling as well...
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 07:28:34 PM »
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Hey,

I really wish that card didn't say "place."  Maybe we could give it play as so that it works when it "Enters a Land of Bondage..."

As it is currently worded, it seems to be the same issue as exchanging the exchanger with a "when you place this lost soul into a site" lost soul.  In the exchange example, I believe you are exchanging not placing.  And in this case you would be returning not placing.  So if I was making a ruling at a tournament tomorrow I would say the ability does not activate again.  But if I remember correctly, the exchange issue was never really resolved.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

That seems to make more sense.

The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2009, 07:45:45 PM »
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Not every card that says "place" must be a place ability.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2009, 08:13:41 PM »
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Hey,

Not every card that says "place" must be a place ability.

I'm not saying that every card that says "place" must be a place ability.  And I'm pretty sure no one else in this thread is suggesting that either.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2009, 08:15:37 PM »
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I'm not saying that every card that says "place" must be a place ability.  And I'm pretty sure no one else in this thread is suggesting that either.

That's exactly what you're suggesting when you say that "exchange" is not "place", making a distinction based on the exchange special ability, and not based on the more general definition of place as just putting something down on the table somewhere.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2009, 08:32:29 PM »
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Hey,

That's exactly what you're suggesting

That's not what I'm suggesting.  What I'm saying is that a "when placed" condition is only satisfied when the card is affected by a place special ability or a place game rule.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 08:58:23 PM »
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How do you define a place game rule if it's something different from a special ability, but not just putting a card somewhere?

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 09:46:41 PM »
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Hey,

A place game rule is anywhere in the rulebook when it says to place something somewhere.  Some examples are Lost Souls are placed in a land of bondage when drawn, weapons can be placed on warriors during your preparation phase, a hero is placed in battle to start a rescue attempt, etc.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 10:13:14 PM »
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Where does placing a soul into a Land of Bondage fit into that, and why would this not qualify?

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2009, 01:51:47 PM »
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Hey,

Where does placing a soul into a Land of Bondage fit into that,

Rulebook pg 5:

"Each time you draw a Lost Soul at any time in the game, it is immediately placed in your Land of Bondage
and replaced by drawing another card."

That is the place game rule that normally activates this lost soul's ability.

and why would this not qualify?

Falling Away:

"Select any Redeemed Soul and return card to your Land of Bondage.  Character is treated as a Lost Soul.  Subtract the rescue from appropriate player's current score."

Because Falling Away doesn't have a place ability it has a return ability.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 03:53:22 PM by SirNobody »

The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2009, 02:15:28 PM »
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Return is not an ability that I am aware of.  Where can I see that defined?

So you're saying that the general rule that Lost Souls are placed in your Land of Bondage is not what you would consider a game rule?  Including any Lost Souls that are brought into play by any method other than drawing?

Offline Arch Angel

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2009, 02:38:34 PM »
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What if the lost soul that gets falling away'd was never in *your* LOB? Can you "return" something to a place it's never been?

I've never considered FA to be a place ability OR a return ability, but I guess consistent rulings are needed.

The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2009, 02:45:55 PM »
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Well, the normal category for abilities that change a card from one type to another is convert.

Offline Korunks

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2009, 02:48:00 PM »
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Does any one else notice a trend lately? Every time a question like this comes up we now delve into whether some action has to be defined by a game rule or it does nothing.  Whatever happened to simple straightforward rules?  The card says when placed, it seems convoluted to try define "place" beyond the physical act.  When I place the card in my land of Bondage, I place it in my land of bondage.  Not everything requires 8 pages of debate over semantics.
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The Schaef

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 02:51:49 PM »
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Well, that's sort of where my questions are leading.  I think we're trying too hard on things like this.

Offline TimMierz

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 02:52:38 PM »
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Does any one else notice a trend lately? Every time a question like this comes up we now delve into whether some action has to be defined by a game rule or it does nothing.  Whatever happened to simple straightforward rules?  The card says when placed, it seems convoluted to try define "place" beyond the physical act.  When I place the card in my land of Bondage, I place it in my land of bondage.  Not everything requires 8 pages of debate over semantics.

I don't think we've ever had "simple straightforward rules." A combination of sloppy wording and intent-actuality gaps have plagued this game since near its inception. By Kings-era, I could barely play with my dad anymore, because all the exceptions and changes and non-obvious interactions caused too much confusion for him and too little fun.
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Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: Site remove LS
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2009, 03:06:27 PM »
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Well, the normal category for abilities that change a card from one type to another is convert.
Why not capture? That turns cards into lost souls, which is even more like what FA does.
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