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Author Topic: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally  (Read 1521 times)

Offline Drrek

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Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« on: August 21, 2015, 08:43:58 PM »
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Can I block normally with the evil character placed face down on a site by the site guard soul?  I can't find anything in the rulebook or REG that says I can't, but my opponent was pretty adamant that I couldn't block with him normally.
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kariusvega

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2015, 08:45:46 PM »
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as far as i can tell you can
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2015, 08:45:58 PM »
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95% certain you're correct off the top of my head. I'll double check
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2015, 08:47:01 PM »
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Yes, provided the rescuing Hero has access to the Site you can add that character to battle. That is the qualifying condition to turn it face up and remove it from where you've placed it.
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2015, 08:59:22 PM »
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Quote from: Gabe on August 21, 2015, 08:47:01 PM
Yes, provided the rescuing Hero has access to the Site you can add that character to battle. That is the qualifying condition to turn it face up and remove it from where you've placed it.

Except the rules for face down don't actually say that.

Quote from: REG
Face Downcards are cards in territories, battle, and set aside areas that are face down either due to special ability, or are inactive artifacts in an artifact pile. Face down cards have no abilities, brigade, titles, or identifiers while they are face down. The only known attribute of a face down card is the card type. Face down cards are only targetable by abilities that specify they can target face down cards or inactive artifacts, or cards that can target any or all cards in a location. When a face down card enters battle, it is immediately flipped face up, unless otherwise specified by the special ability that flipped it face down.

The site guard lost soul makes no mention of when the card turns face up, so the default condition of when it enters battle is all we are left with.  The evil character maintains its card type, and is in territory.  There is nothing in the rules I can find that states that it can't just block normally, even if hero has no site access.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2015, 09:04:23 PM »
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Can it be added to battle while placed?  I know that you can 'band to' the PG Panic Demon, but I can't think of another case where there could be a placed EC, and no other case where it was both placed and still controlled in your territory.  Is there a reason why he could or why he could not block while placed?
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2015, 10:23:06 PM »
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The default conditions for "Place" would indicate that the character would have to remain with the site until it is triggered by the ability (RA at site):

Quote
Default Conditions

* Placed cards remain where they are placed indefinitely.
* Placed cards are placed face up.
* Targets must be in play.
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2015, 10:32:55 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 21, 2015, 10:23:06 PM
The default conditions for "Place" would indicate that the character would have to remain with the site until it is triggered by the ability (RA at site):

Quote
Default Conditions

* Placed cards remain where they are placed indefinitely.
* Placed cards are placed face up.
* Targets must be in play.

Except the second point would seem to contraindicate this situation.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2015, 10:34:13 PM »
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Quote from: Praeceps on August 21, 2015, 10:32:55 PM
Except the second point would seem to contraindicate this situation.

"Default Conditions" do not apply when the card says otherwise.  ;)
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2015, 10:36:25 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 21, 2015, 10:23:06 PM
The default conditions for "Place" would indicate that the character would have to remain with the site until it is triggered by the ability (RA at site):

Quote
Default Conditions

* Placed cards remain where they are placed indefinitely.
* Placed cards are placed face up.
* Targets must be in play.

An evil character placed in territory also stays there indefinitely until they block.  That default condition just means that they don't leave for no reason, so your Herod's treachery doesn't go to discard for no reason.  A Herod's treachery follows a herod that is discarded because of game rule, just like evil characters are allowed to block because of game rule.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2015, 10:39:09 PM »
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I would disagree with that logic. The default for characters placed face up in territory is that they can be added to battle by normal methods. The default for characters that are placed by a special ability is that they stay where they are placed. Only the SA of this LS overrides these defaults by allowing you to block with it if there is a RA at that site.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 10:57:19 PM »
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YMT is correct, and the default condition is that the placed card must remain unless something else acts to make it no longer placed.  There is a reason why Tower of Thebez has to specify that you can return to territory; otherwise, you could not block with them.
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2015, 11:01:01 PM »
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Quote from: Redoubter on August 21, 2015, 10:57:19 PM
YMT is correct, and the default condition is that the placed card must remain unless something else acts to make it no longer placed.  There is a reason why Tower of Thebez has to specify that you can return to territory; otherwise, you could not block with them.

Except ECs aren't placed on tower, they are held there.  Honestly unless there is a rule under hold specifying otherwise, I don't see why they couldn't block from tower.  Even if there is a rule under hold, that doesn't have to do with the rules on placed cards.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Site Guard Lost Soul and Blocking Normally
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2015, 11:13:09 PM »
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We are talking about Place, and you see the default there.  I was trying to draw comparisons between two very similar (almost identical) abilities to show that there are cards where this happens.  And it does happen for Tower, though I'll leave that for another discussion.

The fact still remains that for the discussion at hand, Place has a clear default condition that says that they stay until something says otherwise.  There's no real way around that.
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