Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: SignoftheStar on October 21, 2013, 11:32:35 AM
-
The Psalm 1:4 Lost Soul reads:
"This Lost Soul may be held captive in a Site currently occupied by another Lost Soul."
A few questions:
1. Does the ability keep Site Doubler in the Site, or is it like a banding ability that allows a Character to enter battle but does not keep the Character there?
2. Correct me if I'm wrong: this Lost Soul can enter an already occupied Site, BUT another Lost Soul cannot enter a Site already occupied by this Lost Soul. Correct? Since it is Site Doubler's ability that allows her to enter a Site, a Lost Soul without this special ability would not be able to do so themselves.
-
You are correct for #2.
For #1, the SA creates a spot for that LS in an already occupied site. That ability would have to be negated in the same phase, otherwise that spot will be there for that LS (or any LS that is exchanged for it), until one of the LSs in that site is rescued/removed.
-
So basically, if the FBTN Lost Soul or Isaiah and his Call come into the picture, the Site Doubler doesn't suddenly leave a Site occupied by a Lost Soul.
-
So basically, if the FBTN Lost Soul or Isaiah and his Call come into the picture, the Site Doubler doesn't suddenly leave a Site occupied by a Lost Soul.
Correct.
-
Ok.
As always, thank you Math Teacher, and thank you Professor.
-
While we're on the subject of this sticky soul... where are we at with the timing of the Doubler's special ability? When and how often does it activate / check?
Example:
Let's say the Doubler comes into play turn 1 with no other site or soul.
I draw a Female Only LS turn 2, placing it in Egypt
I can then add the Doubler to that site, correct?
Let's say turn 3 I draw a NT Only LS
I place it into a Pharaoh's Prison
I make a rescue and I'm blocked by Seige Army
My opponent discards Egypt
This now returns the Female Only and Doubler to general land of bondage
At what point can I add the Doubler to Pharaoh's Prison with the NT only?
(My guess is that she can only be placed in sites during the prep phase per game rule)
-
While we're on the subject of this sticky soul... where are we at with the timing of the Doubler's special ability? When and how often does it activate / check?
This is a ruling that I have not quite understood. This is technically an instant ability, so it should only activate the first time that it is drawn (use it or lose it). However, most other LSs that have instant abilities say "When drawn" so I think this LS has traditionally been allowed to be placed into a site even on later turns. I'm not really sure what the justification for that would be, though, so I will have to bow to an Elder for clarification.
-
It only makes sense to me that the Site Doubler Lost Soul's ability can be used any time there is an occupied Site that it can occupy, just like how you can activate the Deck Discard and Hand Discard Lost Souls' abilities any time they enter a Site.
-
It only makes sense to me that the Site Doubler Lost Soul's ability can be used any time there is an occupied Site that it can occupy, just like how you can activate the Deck Discard and Hand Discard Lost Souls' abilities any time they enter a Site.
Those LSs are not the same, because they say, "When placed in a site," which is something that you are always allowed to do in your Prep Phase. The ability activates when the LS is first put in play, which then waits for the trigger (put in a site).
The Site Doubler is not a triggered ability, so it should not follow the same rule. However, since "held captive" is not an official SA, one could argue that the ability is Ongoing. Ongoing abilities on LSs can be used on any turn.
-
I would tend to think the Site Doubler is intended to conform to, rather than supersede, the following game rules
1) Lost Souls can only be placed into sites during a players preparation phase.
2) Lost Souls cannot be removed from a site unless caused by a special ability
That being said, on any [1] preparation phase where the Doubler is [2] not already in a site, it may be placed in a site already occupied by another soul.
Thus a player can't wait until his opponent attacks, then "instantly" place the doubler in a site to limit access (I certainly know that nobody has ever played it that way!).
Thoughts?
-
That being said, on any [1] preparation phase where the Doubler is [2] not already in a site, it may be placed in a site already occupied by another soul.
This is the current ruling.
Other threads have been bringing up the more literal interpretations of printed abilities, even though the wording was obsolete. Thus, if we are going to question everything, I would have to question this LS's SA. The errata listed in the Redemption Wiki has this as a "Place" ability, which is an Instant Ability. An optional instant ability on a Lost Soul is unusual, but I do not see why it can be used on any turn. Unless we are ruling that LSs follow the same rules as artifacts (i.e. Holy Grail). Thus, the LS activates when it enters play, and can be used when the player chooses. However, that would mean that you could put the LS in a site even during battle.
-
Although I hardly have the accreditation to do so, I stand by what Red Warrior says. You place in a Site during your Preparation or Discard Phase, as you would with any Lost Soul under normal circumstances, except that you are allowed to place it in an already occupied Site.
-
From how I read the abilities, they may be slightly different between the Warriors (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Psalm_1:4_(Wa)) and Kings (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Psalm_1:4_(Ki)) version, but I would read it as a Hold ability, even though it is not a conventional one. The Warriors version specifically uses "held" as well, which lends to this idea. If it is a Hold ability, then it is ongoing regardless.
Further, since Lost Souls are continuously activating (like Fortresses and Sites), if it does not restrict the activation to a specific moment (such as 'when drawn'), then it is always activating and can be used.
I know this soul has been ruled both ways, but I'm having trouble seeing it as one-time-only.
-
I know this soul has been ruled both ways, but I'm having trouble seeing it as one-time-only.
If it is an Instant Ability, then it either has to be use-it-or-lose-it the first time it is played, or it has to be optional use whenever you want. This is the only optional-use LS that I am aware of. All other LSs with instant abilities are conditional or triggered.
If it is an Ongoing Ability, then it can be used during any Prep Phase.
Right now the card has an Errata that makes it an Instant Ability.
You place in a Site during your Preparation or Discard Phase, as you would with any Lost Soul under normal circumstances, except that you are allowed to place it in an already occupied Site.
You cannot normally place Lost Souls in a site during your Discard Phase.
-
Ok.
As always, thank you Math Teacher, and thank you Professor.
You just got schooled. :P
A little late in the topic but whatever...
-
So is the Site doubler an instant action, as in have an occupied site or this lost soul is useless? lol
-
So is the Site doubler an instant action, as in have an occupied site or this lost soul is useless? lol
That is only one of the possibilities for an optional instant ability, which is the case for all characters and enhancements. For example, when you use Reach of Desperation, you either have to draw the 3 right when you play the card, or you lose that ability. You cannot choose later in the battle to draw the 3 cards.
However, it is more likely that LSs are treated like other static cards, such as artifacts and fortresses, as Redoubter was eluding to. But the rule for optional instant abilities on those is that you can choose to use the ability at any time after the card is activated (unless the ability is conditional or triggered).
These are the only two options, since there is no other precedent for optional instant abilities on a LS. Therefore, the ruling should be that you can place the Site Doubler into an occupied site at any time that you want, even in the middle of a battle. This would make the card a lot more useful (and nasty).
But, we do have the choice (with Elder approval and action) to remove the Errata that was given to this LS and declare it to be an Ongoing Ability. If this were to happen, then the card would continue to be played the way most of us play it, which is that you can put the LS into an occupied site during any of your Prep Phases (or at any time that a SA says otherwise).
-
Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond, I have always played it that it can be placed in a site, at any of your preparation phases. I have it in one of my decks, and would definitely take it out if it was a one time thing.
I've never seen anyone use it as a one time effect, do some people rule it that way?
-
From the REG regarding "Hold" (Page 45)
Default Conditions
Characters returned from being held are returned to their owner's territory.
Artifacts returned from being held are returned to their owner's artifact pile.
Characters to be held can come from hand or territory.
Artifacts to be held can come from hand or artifact pile.
Enhancements to be held come from hand.
Hold abilities are manually triggered abilities that can only be triggered during their owner's preparation phase.
Lost Soul Psalm 1:4 (Kings)
This Lost Soul may be held captive in a Site currently occupied by another Lost Soul
I say remove the Play-As. When we strip the ability back to a "Hold" ability, then the REG has our answer for us... which also conveniently works the way that most of us have played it.
-
I say remove the Play-As. When we strip the ability back to a "Hold" ability, then the REG has our answer for us... which also conveniently works the way that most of us have played it.
I agree, which is why I brought it up. I believe that the Errata was made primarily to say "one other lost soul" instead of "another lost soul." Changing it to a "place" ability in the process is what has caused a conundrum.
-
First, there is no official errata (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/official-errata/errata-reworded-special-abilities/) for this card. Play-As =/= Errata, and is not necessarily the correct ruling.
However, it is more likely that LSs are treated like other static cards, such as artifacts and fortresses, as Redoubter was eluding to.
Just for reference, I got that from an Elder (Gabe) at 2012 Nats, and other Elders agreed. I can't remember what Soul I was asking about, but I was told that the rule is that LS, Fortresses and Sites are continuously activating.
Therefore, the ruling should be that you can place the Site Doubler into an occupied site at any time that you want, even in the middle of a battle. This would make the card a lot more useful (and nasty).
While I understand the logic you're trying to get to, the card does not override game rule that LS placement in sites can only take place during your own Prep phase. It just says "may be held in a site with another soul", not "place in a site with another soul". The latter would specifically override the game rule, but the current ruling does not.
Changing it to a "place" ability in the process is what has caused a conundrum.
But cause the problem I just mentioned, as "place" could cause a problem with timing ;)
-
While I understand the logic you're trying to get to, the card does not override game rule that LS placement in sites can only take place during your own Prep phase. It just says "may be held in a site with another soul", not "place in a site with another soul". The latter would specifically override the game rule, but the current ruling does not.
I was going by the Errata listed in the Redemption Wiki, which says precisely that. ;)
-
I was going by the Errata listed in the Redemption Wiki, which says precisely that. ;)
Ah, okay, that explains a lot then ;)
Well, that one isn't an actual errata from what I can tell, just a Play-As that changes the way the card works, so it should be regarded with suspicion.
-
While I understand the logic you're trying to get to, the card does not override game rule that LS placement in sites can only take place during your own Prep phase. It just says "may be held in a site with another soul", not "place in a site with another soul". The latter would specifically override the game rule, but the current ruling does not.
I was going by the Errata listed in the Redemption Wiki, which says precisely that. ;)
No offense to Lambo, but it's probably one of the mistakes that cropped up with the initial card dump to the site. Which, btw, has been a great help which we are thankful for.
-
While I understand the logic you're trying to get to, the card does not override game rule that LS placement in sites can only take place during your own Prep phase. It just says "may be held in a site with another soul", not "place in a site with another soul". The latter would specifically override the game rule, but the current ruling does not.
I was going by the Errata listed in the Redemption Wiki, which says precisely that. ;)
No offense to Lambo, but it's probably one of the mistakes that cropped up with the initial card dump to the site. Which, btw, has been a great help which we are thankful for.
I am EXTREMELY grateful for Redemption Wiki!!! I have it as a saved tab on my iphone and any time I'm doing something Redemption related (even deck building) I pull it up every couple minutes haha.
I hate when posts like this just "die" without resolution, especially with other players that will be searching for this ruling years down the road, so I would say lets proceed for now with this interpretation unless an Elder wishes to pursue another answer:
Lost Soul Psalm 1:4
During your preparation phase, if this Lost Soul is not in a site, This Lost Soul may be held captive in a Site currently occupied by another Lost Soul.
-
I second Red's motion.