Author Topic: Simultaneous triggers conflicting (Read 15372 times)

Bryon · « **Reply #25 on:** March 21, 2009, 03:53:46 PM »

I guess I didn't read Gabe's post closely enough. Angel's Sword allows FIRST enhancement. There can only be one first enhancement. Just like there can only be one first strike (first one activated takes precidence). If an Angel with Angel's Sword attacks, and is blocked by a human banded to a demon banded to a human with an immunity weapon, then the angel gets to play after all of that other stuff completes. However, if any of the abilities on any of the evil cards allow the playing of an enhancement, then it has to get in line behind the FIRST enhancement played by the angel.

Of course, on most angels, your horsies will interrupt Angel's Sword, allowing you to play en EE before the angel.

However, the horsies do NOT interrupt Angel's Sword on Michael, so he plays first enhancement regardless.

Am I alone in seeing it this way?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #26 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:04:52 PM »

See, this is what I dont like about Angels Sword.

How can Angels Sword be fully triggered if the EC is technically not IN BATTLE until all 5 steps of the Order of Abilities are complete?

Again, I use the assyrian archer example, How can 2kh try even try to interrupt Angels Sword, if the trigger isnt fullfilled yet, as the EC is not totally in battle?

crustpope · « **Reply #27 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:34:02 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 21, 2009, 03:53:46 PM

I guess I didn't read Gabe's post closely enough. Angel's Sword allows FIRST enhancement. There can only be one first enhancement. Just like there can only be one first strike (first one activated takes precidence). If an Angel with Angel's Sword attacks, and is blocked by a human banded to a demon banded to a human with an immunity weapon, then the angel gets to play after all of that other stuff completes. However, if any of the abilities on any of the evil cards allow the playing of an enhancement, then it has to get in line behind the FIRST enhancement played by the angel.

Of course, on most angels, your horsies will interrupt Angel's Sword, allowing you to play en EE before the angel.

However, the horsies do NOT interrupt Angel's Sword on Michael, so he plays first enhancement regardless.

Am I alone in seeing it this way?

This is how I saw it. That unless AS is on michael, it will likely be interupted by 2khorse/swift horses/Nammans chariot and horse etc. IF it is not interrupted or if it IS on michael, then AS goes first before any enhancement. (even gold shield)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #28 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:39:29 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 21, 2009, 04:34:02 PM

This is how I saw it. That unless AS is on michael, it will likely be interupted by 2khorse/swift horses/Nammans chariot and horse etc. IF it is not interrupted or if it IS on michael, then AS goes first before any enhancement. (even gold shield)

Yet again I ask you all, How can Angels Sword be triggered, if the EC has not technically "blocked" until all 5 steps of the Order of abilities complete?

Sorry to sound like a broken record but I'm majorly disagreeing with how this works right now.

crustpope · « **Reply #29 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:40:51 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 21, 2009, 04:39:29 PM

Yet again I ask you all, How can Angels Sword be triggered, if the EC has not technically "blocked" until all 5 steps of the Order of abilities complete?

Sorry to sound like a broken record but I'm majorly disagreeing with how this works right now.

Post the five steps so I can refresh my memory. I must be missing somethign too

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #30 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:43:55 PM »

Quote

When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), and an order is not specified, perform the abilities in this order:

1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.

2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.

3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.

4. Then, complete banding abilities.

5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.

This is why I keep hammering the Assyrian Archer question. Banding comes after Warrior Class abilities in the order of abilities.

crustpope · « **Reply #31 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:48:30 PM »

OOoohh. Yeah I see what you are talking about. I am guessing that they are saying that only the first two are involved in the presentation of the blocker. In other words, Angels sword can catch a banding character in battle and play an enhancement before they can band to someone. But that seems foolish since banding ablilities are printed on the card.

I think we have to re-think AS or rethink the order of operations. Why was this order decided on in this particular way anyway, what was the reasoning behind inserting Weapon Class abilities before the rest of the printed character abilities? Perhaps Bryon or Rob can shed some light onto that.

The only fix I can see is to move #3 to #5 spot and move the other two up.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #32 on:** March 21, 2009, 04:53:40 PM »

Yeah, I use Hidden Treasures as a similar example, Since even Choose the Blocker abilities get to activate before Hidden Treasures kicks in, since thats when the hero is finally "in battle."

I say the only way to fix this is Angels Sword must wait for all 5 steps to complete, then it allows you to play the next enhancement.

STAMP · « **Reply #33 on:** March 21, 2009, 06:54:09 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 21, 2009, 03:53:46 PM

I guess I didn't read Gabe's post closely enough. Angel's Sword allows FIRST enhancement. There can only be one first enhancement. Just like there can only be one first strike (first one activated takes precidence). If an Angel with Angel's Sword attacks, and is blocked by a human banded to a demon banded to a human with an immunity weapon, then the angel gets to play after all of that other stuff completes. However, if any of the abilities on any of the evil cards allow the playing of an enhancement, then it has to get in line behind the FIRST enhancement played by the angel.

Of course, on most angels, your horsies will interrupt Angel's Sword, allowing you to play en EE before the angel.

However, the horsies do NOT interrupt Angel's Sword on Michael, so he plays first enhancement regardless.

Am I alone in seeing it this way?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #34 on:** March 21, 2009, 06:59:54 PM »

My challenge to Bryon and STAMP, and all who agree with them:

Explain how the trigger of Angels Sword has been met before 2kh is activated? When has the Evil Character truely "Blocked?"

*Edit* yes, I agree it allows the *first* enh to be played, but How can you all say the trigger of "When a human evil character BLOCKS..." has been fullfilled?

Bryon · « **Reply #35 on:** March 21, 2009, 07:33:11 PM »

All five steps are completed before Angel's Sword allows the enhancement to be played. HOWEVER, if there is a "play an enhancement" ability on any of the cards in any of the steps, that ability is delayed until AFTER the enhancement allowed by Angel's Sword.

Again, this only applies to cards such as Angel's Sword that allow you to play the FIRST enhancement. At least, I am fairly certain that is the case.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #36 on:** March 21, 2009, 07:36:09 PM »

That just seems strange to me... Instantaneous abilities happen instantly do they not? $:-\$ How does Angels Sword manage to shove itself inbetween instant abilities, when even Dominants cannot?

This just doesnt seem very consistant... Some WC enhs work fine, but others do not?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #37 on:** March 21, 2009, 09:27:44 PM »

Have we made a final decision then? If so, please post an ordered list of what happens when, because I am completely confused.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2009, 09:37:15 PM »

Seems pretty situational which isn't consistant.

Bryon · « **Reply #39 on:** March 21, 2009, 11:15:01 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 21, 2009, 07:36:09 PM

That just seems strange to me... Instantaneous abilities happen instantly do they not? $:-\$ How does Angels Sword manage to shove itself inbetween instant abilities, when even Dominants cannot?

This just doesnt seem very consistant... Some WC enhs work fine, but others do not?

Angel's Sword doesn't shove itself in between two abilities. Angel's Sword is an ongoing ability that delays other "play an/next/first enhancement" abilities before they happen, then triggers its own "play first enhancement" ability when its conditions are met.

Also, it has nothing to do with the types of cards that carry these abilities. If I had a fortress, or dominant, or site, or artifact, or hero, or evil character, or non-WC enhancement that gave a "play first enhancement" ability to a player, then it would work exactly the same way as Angel's Sword. And if it came up against any type of card that gives a "play an/next/first" enhancement ability to another player, then the first one active wins, no matter what type of card the abilities are on.
In effect, a "play first enhancement" ability does two things:
1) sets a trigger for when that first enhancement can be played
2) disallows the playing of enhancements before that point. Any "play (an/next/first) enhancement" abilities that try to take effect before the trigger are instead delayed until after the first enhancement is played.

That is the way I've explained it here. I'm open to correction if there is documentation otherwise, but I thought that was the case.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #40 on:** March 21, 2009, 11:23:23 PM »

Ok, I see where the problem lies.

Angels Sword and Helmet of Brass do not fit into ANY current card category. In the REG, Play next is listed as an instant ability, not ongoing...

So right now, theres no official documentation in the REG stating how the card should be played.

The current How to play for play next states:

Quote

The rules of initiative require that the player with initiative may play the next enhancement card or pass. However, ‘play the next enhancement’ cards allow the holder to temporarily suspend the initiative rules until the effect is completed. If playing the next card depends on a condition to be satisfied, the special ability to play the next card may either be delayed or not completed at all. For example, some ‘play next enhancement’ cards cannot be completed until a blocker is presented in battle. In this condition, an enhancement card cannot be played until the blocker is presented and the blocker’s special ability is activated. If no blocker is presented, no enhancement card can be played.

I see nothing about it delaying other abilities, but rather only that it must wait for its trigger, like I have been arguing this whole time.

If Angels sword is to be played the way you describe, could we make a new ability type called Play First? It'd be ongoing like you said, and would delay other abilities like you said. However, right now the closest documentation in the REG is the above, and it says nothing about delaying...

Bryon · « **Reply #41 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:40:29 AM »

Aren't all delayed trigger abilities ongoing while they wait for the instant part of their ability to kick in? Isn't that how interrupt the battle can interrupt delayed triggers? (How, for example, Archer+horses+endbattle keeps the delayed trigger on the archer from kicking in).

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #42 on:** March 22, 2009, 07:40:56 AM »

There definitely needs to be a clarification of "Play First" in the REG, then. Since it is not a separate category, I would naturally base my ruling on "Play Next" rules only. Much like "Band a second hero" is treated as "Band an additional hero," I did not see "Play First" as a literal phrase. I have always treated it as a triggered ability that must wait for character abilities to complete.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:56:27 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 22, 2009, 02:40:29 AM

Aren't all delayed trigger abilities ongoing while they wait for the instant part of their ability to kick in? Isn't that how interrupt the battle can interrupt delayed triggers? (How, for example, Archer+horses+endbattle keeps the delayed trigger on the archer from kicking in).

Yeah, I agree they are ongoing, but theres still nothing in the REG about other intantantaneous abilities being delayed until AS gets to Play First.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 22, 2009, 07:40:56 AM

There definitely needs to be a clarification of "Play First" in the REG, then. Since it is not a separate category, I would naturally base my ruling on "Play Next" rules only. Much like "Band a second hero" is treated as "Band an additional hero," I did not see "Play First" as a literal phrase. I have always treated it as a triggered ability that must wait for character abilities to complete.

As said, the REG currently seems to point to me being correct, and Angels Sword has to wait for all abilties to go first, even those that play enhancements.

Bryon · « **Reply #44 on:** March 22, 2009, 12:43:10 PM »

Well, if "play the first enhancement" is ruled to mean only "play an enhancement," then you will wait for ALL abilities to complete, and Michael w/Angel's sword gets trumped by any schmo with a horse. I'm not saying it would be all bad. It might be nice to have one fewer ability, rather than one more. However, it has always seemed like most players who read "first enhancement" would assume it allows the FIRST enhancement. That's the way I understood it in playtesting Kings and so thats the way I've explained it here. However, like I said, I'm open to correction.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #45 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:22:31 PM »

I'm not necessarily suggesting a correction to your ruling, but rather a clarification of "Play First" maybe just as a bullet point in the "Play Next" section. Like I said earlier, if I'm looking up a ruling for "Play First" and find nothing, the "Play Next" seems the most logical next place to search. Having a brief paragraph (that says what you are saying) in the "How to Use" part would alleviate any confusion.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #46 on:** March 22, 2009, 06:21:58 PM »

Agreed. One simple bullet point in the REG would end this entire debate, and clearly explain how these cards work.

The end of headaches for all. I would be fine with it delaying other abilities, so long as thats actually written into the rules.

SirNobody · « **Reply #47 on:** March 23, 2009, 11:33:13 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 21, 2009, 04:04:52 PM

if the EC is technically not IN BATTLE until all 5 steps of the Order of Abilities are complete

This is not true! If the Evil Character is physically in the field of battle then the character is in battle. I have seen several people make this statement that the character is not in battle until it's ability is completed, but it simply is not true.

The rule that is relevant to this situation is that abilities that activate [enters battle] take precedence over abilities that are triggered. A lot of players haven't seemed to pick up on this rule yet and I'm not sure why.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef · « **Reply #48 on:** March 24, 2009, 06:39:32 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on March 23, 2009, 11:33:13 PM

This is not true! If the Evil Character is physically in the field of battle then the character is in battle. I have seen several people make this statement that the character is not in battle until it's ability is completed, but it simply is not true.

The entry into battle and activation of special ability occur at the same moment. I'm not aware of anything in the rules that says they are two separate events. Moreover, if a character is in battle before his special ability (tries to) activates, then every battle has a "lone Hero" at the start and demon-discard Lost Soul can be triggered in any battle, for example.

SirNobody · « **Reply #49 on:** March 24, 2009, 02:15:53 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: The Schaef on March 24, 2009, 06:39:32 AM

The entry into battle and activation of special ability occur at the same moment.

Sadly a recent change to the online version of the rulebook seems to agree with you. Logically, the ability activating is an effect that is caused by the character entering battle, it is impossible for a cause and effect to happen simultaneously.

Quote

Moreover, if a character is in battle before his special ability (tries to) activates, then every battle has a "lone Hero" at the start and demon-discard Lost Soul can be triggered in any battle, for example.

Yes every battle has a lone hero at the start of the battle. But activated abilities have to complete before triggered abilities so characters with banding abilities still take effect and take the battle out of the "has a lone hero" state before the demon-discard lost soul can be triggered by that state. We've gone over this before.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

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Author Topic: Simultaneous triggers conflicting (Read 15372 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

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Lamborghini_diablo

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Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

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The Schaef