Author Topic: Simultaneous triggers conflicting (Read 15205 times)

soul seeker · « **on:** March 19, 2009, 02:12:38 PM »

I've read the topic: Swords vs. GitC which didn't help for two reasons:
1. a confirmed ruling was never made..just a consensus
2. my conflicting triggers is slightly different

I had The Throne of David up with a King in battle. I was blocked with King Evil Merodach, who looks at hand and plays first (ref. must match of course) who doesn't have a weapon.

Which is activated first?

Arguments:
Pro: my ability was activated first because it was in play first (the fort)
Con: in Hake's article, he said the Warden, Zimri, and other SAs get to complete first.

What is the official order of operations?

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:19:00 PM »

TToD triggers when the EC enters battle. The ECs SA has to complete before you can resolve the effect of TToD. In this case the evil King plays first if he chooses, then you can draw/play from TToD.

P.S. - if you'd just ra'd with King David you wouldn't have had to worry about it.

crustpope · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:19:42 PM »

I say the fort Activates first because its ability was first.

This issue needs to be resolved because there are so many of these simultaneous triggers that this will come up again and again. From my perspetive, the easiest way to fix it is to say triggers activate based on the order that they were set up or engaged. first comes first

(Edit - Instaposted) But then again, I could be wrong

(Reffering to gabes post) SO what is the guiding rule? do Character SA's take presedence over arts and fortresses?

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:25:39 PM »

In this example TToD is triggered first but cannot take effect until the block is complete. The block is not complete until the evil character's SA is completed.

Yes, characters SA complete when they enter battle.

SS, you played a very similar scenerio correctly in our game today when you made your last rescue (if you recall what you did and the order you completed the abilities).

soul seeker · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:31:14 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on March 19, 2009, 02:25:39 PM

In this example TToD is triggered first but cannot take effect until the block is complete. The block is not complete until the evil character's SA is completed.

Yes, characters SA complete when they enter battle.

SS, you played a very similar scenerio correctly in our game today when you made your last rescue (if you recall what you did and the order you completed the abilities).

See, for some reason, I thought Throne trumped all because it was already "activated". I ended up relenting (though disagreeably because the "Sword vs. GitC" led me astray) and allowing my opponent to look and play first. So, I apologize to my opponent if I came off like a jerk (it was not my intention).

As for King David, well ironically, he was the freebie card that I drew when I eventually did draw.

TXJonathan · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:39:00 PM »

its ok soul seeker we all get confused sometimes

galadgawyn · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:16:14 PM »

I agree that the fort is active first but has to wait until the block is complete which includes the ability on the evil character that is blocking. So if King Zimri, Warden, Lot's Wife, etc. block then they get to carry out their ability before your king does.

However, I thought there was a rule that if the abilities directly conflict then the one active first wins. Ex: the first strike in battle first wins or if King Merodach blocks an angel with angel's sword then the angel plays first

So I think that King Merodach gets to look first, then you play from Throne of David, and then King Merodach would get to play an enhancement (is King Merodach a play first or just a play ability?).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:26:24 PM »

I agree with Gabe. The abilities do not actually happen at the same time. Character special abilities always happen first (in this case...King Merry getting to look and play). Then triggered abilities happen (in this case...ToD getting to draw or play.

This isn't a case of two simultaneous triggered abilities at all. It is a case of a regular special ability and a triggered ability.

However, I agree that we do need something official regarding what happens when there are simultaneous triggered abilities.

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:28:20 PM »

The Throne of David
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Attributes: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Verse: I Kings 2:45

King Merodach-baladan
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 10 / 11 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Look at opponent’s hand. You may play a crimson Enhancement with a II Kings or Isaiah reference. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, King (Babylonia), Royalty, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Isaiah 39:1

galadgawyn · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:30:33 PM »

I understand that they are not both triggers but which plays first with Angel's Sword and Merodach?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2009, 05:10:58 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 19, 2009, 04:30:33 PM

I understand that they are not both triggers but which plays first with Angel's Sword and Merodach?

Merodach. Angel's Sword is also a triggered ability.

Angel’s Sword
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character.

STAMP · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2009, 06:24:47 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 19, 2009, 05:10:58 PM

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 19, 2009, 04:30:33 PM
I understand that they are not both triggers but which plays first with Angel's Sword and Merodach?

Merodach. Angel's Sword is also a triggered ability.

Angel’s Sword
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character.

Ironically, by the time AS kicks in it's time for the 3rd enhancement to be played.

TXJonathan · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:49:09 PM »

What activates first if Michael has Angel's Sword vs a draw/initiative Evil Weapon Ehancement such as Two Thousand Horses?

Michael
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 12 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Enhancements used by Michael cannot be negated. •

Two Thousand Horses
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Holder may interrupt the battle, draw 2 cards from the top of own draw pile, and play the next enhancement. •

crustpope · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2009, 07:34:13 AM »

Well, since it is an enhancement instead of a character special ability, my guess is that since Angels sword was hte first enhancement played, it goes before 2khorses

Now having said that, if 2k horses is on Rabby, then it cannot be interupted or negated so I would assume that...but wait, what if angels sword is on Michael..? oh Cannot Compute,..&& DH DHD AL AHHH

FAIL

Guys, speaking from my own perspective as a judge, we need some hard and fast rules on how to judge these. are we going to go by first come first served? are we going to say that characters have to resolve first and then enhancements? This is getting really complicated and some of us are really confused...OK maybe it is just ME that is really confused...

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2009, 08:50:02 AM »

Michael + Angel's Sword vs The Rabshakeh + 2Khorses is a little confusing, I agree. However, there are hard and fast rules to govern these things. It's just a matter of sorting out a difficult situation and breaking it down step by step. I've found rules questions are much easier to sort out here on the boards when I have the REG and other references at my fingertips. Get me in a tournament and I have questions (and get confused) too.

Michael enters battle and Angel's Sword activates, waiting for a human EC to block.

The Rabshakeh enters battle, Angel's Sword triggers (but still waits for it's chance to play), characters abilities complete and 2Khorses activates.

2Khorses tries to interrupt Angel's Sword but cannot since it's used by Micahel.

The holder of 2Khorses may draw 2.

Angel's Sword play next was active first so Michael is allowed to play an enhancement.

Provided there is still an evil character in battle, the holder of 2Khorses is now allowed to play next.

Angel’s Sword
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Numbers 22:23

Bryon · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:19:29 AM »

Gabe is correct in all of the above.

crustpope · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:36:09 AM »

That is how I would have ruled it. it is a good thing that so far we dont have too many of those issues. Michael on the hero side and nergalshazzar, Rabbeshach, and naamaan on the evil side.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:27:33 PM »

That is how I thought it was ruled Gabe but then why doesn't Angel's Sword play before Merodach? I thought it was the same logic. And if Angel's Sword plays before Merodach then I would think that David's Throne also plays before it. It seems like they should all be the same for consistency and if they're not then I'm missing something.

crustpope · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:36:42 PM »

The difference between Rabby and merodach is that the ability to play an enhancement is part of the character SA, not part of an enhancement SA. In order for the block to be complete the full SA on the EC must be fulfilled before Angels Sword can be activaed.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:45:19 PM »

so, does this mean AS would work before Complainers? If AS can insert itself into step 2/3 of the order of abilities, then choose the rescuer abilities would need to come after it...

*edit*

Better question. You all seem to agree that AS inserts itself before 2kh correct?

What if 2kh was on Assyrian archer? He is not technically IN BATTLE until his ability completes. However, order of abilities states that 2kh activates before his banding ability, so he cant finish his ability until 2kh is done, meaning he isnt IN BATTLE until 2kh is done.

I really dislike the way AS works right now. It goes against the entire order of abilities.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:56:32 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 20, 2009, 03:45:19 PM

I really dislike the way AS works right now. It goes against the entire order of abilities.

QFT. I believe Angel's Sword should activate *after* the EC has fully blocked (including the abilities of WC enh.)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:11:06 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on March 20, 2009, 08:50:02 AM

The Rabshakeh enters battle, Angel's Sword triggers (but still waits for it's chance to play), characters abilities complete and 2Khorses activates.

Going along with what I said above, this is where the whole Angels Sword/2kh situation runs into a snag.

So, unless this issue is resolved, I am going to play Angels Sword so that it lets me play before my opponents EC can band or choose the rescuer, because this is clearly where Angels Sword activates according to the general consensus.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #22 on:** March 21, 2009, 12:15:09 PM »

Quote

The difference between Rabby and merodach is that the ability to play an enhancement is part of the character SA, not part of an enhancement SA. In order for the block to be complete the full SA on the EC must be fulfilled before Angels Sword can be activaed.

Quote

Better question. You all seem to agree that AS inserts itself before 2kh correct?

No, I don't think so. Even Gabe's example with Byron's agreement has 2kh activating before AS. It interrupts the battle and draws 3 cards. It is only when it directly conflicts (two abilities trying to be first) with AS that AS gets to go first. Now with Lambo's Assyrian Archer...

The Assyrian would try to play next with 2kh but can't because AS gets to go first. Does AS play an enhancement at that moment or does it wait for the rest of Assyrian Archer to complete since character abilities are supposed to finish first? If it waits, then what it happens if Assyrian Archer ends up banding to Complainers? You switch out the hero and then you get to finally play next on Assyrian Archer? I agree that things don't quite seem to mesh here.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2009, 01:48:18 PM »

So... can we get an official stance on what happens with 2kh and a banding character?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #24 on:** March 21, 2009, 02:55:23 PM »

Sorry for the double post but this was more than an edits worth of info:

I have two more questions.

Angels Sword has a similar trigger to Hidden Treasures does it not? If this is the case, the current ruling of Angels Sword would mean that Hidden Treasures kicks in before a WC enh on David, would it not? Because, if WC enhs do not count as part of the character, then David is already in battle before his WC enhancement, at least thats what Bryon and Gabe seem to agree on:

Quote from: BrianGabe on March 20, 2009, 08:50:02 AM

The Rabshakeh enters battle, Angel's Sword triggers (but still waits for it's chance to play), characters abilities complete and 2Khorses activates.

Next question, Angels Sword vs Bow and Arrow. Would Angels Sword still manage to insert itself into the order of abilities and beat out the immunity of Bow and Arrow? Bow and Arrow is not trying to play next, its not trying to interrupt AS, it just slaps immunity on the EC as soon as it activates. Gabe states in the quote above that 2kh does indeed try to ACTIVATE before the play next happens. So would it grant its immunity before the next enh is played?

News:

Author Topic: Simultaneous triggers conflicting (Read 15205 times)

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