Author Topic: Confusing negates  (Read 1305 times)

Offline Ken4Christ4ever

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Confusing negates
« on: June 21, 2013, 10:56:32 PM »
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Okay, playing with the new starter decks, here is the scenario:

Jephthah attacks.
Achan defends.
Achan plays Achan's Sin, which discards all cards in battle.
Jephthah plays Family Bond, which negates and discards Achan's Sin.
Achan plays To Each His Own, which has each player search their discard pile for an evil enhancement.
That player chooses Achan's Sin.
Achan plays Achan's Sin (again), negating Family Bond and discarding all cards in battle (again).

Since Family Bond is negated, Achan's Sin wouldn't have been in the discard pile to search for it, so this is a confusing scenario. Can Achan's Sin be played the second time? What happens? Can Jephthah play another negate? If so, are there two times that Achan's Sin is discarding everything or is negating one sufficient?

Thanks for your help!
Ken

browarod

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 11:28:30 PM »
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According to Tim Maly who is sitting next to me, Achan's Sin would technically be in play twice (and both are discarding). You would not need to necessarily negate both, though, because if you negated the second (newest) one then that would stop negating Family Bond which would then be negating the first (older) one again.

Hope that makes sense. :P

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 12:55:50 AM »
+2


My poor head.

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2013, 12:59:47 AM »
+5
Order of operations. The last Achan's sin goes off discarding everything. Nothing else activates.



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« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:03:37 AM by TheKarazyvicePresidentRR »
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 02:23:49 PM »
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Order of operations. The last Achan's sin goes off discarding everything. Nothing else activates.

This is correct for another reason:  Even though you negated the card that negated the original Achan's Sin, that first Sin must reactivate after being unnegated in order to be in effect.  It cannot do so until all other active abilities resolve, which includes this Achan's Sin Jr.  If Achan's Sin Jr is negated, then Family Bond reactivates and continues negating+discarding the Achan's Sin Sr (because its target was already chosen and it cannot choose a new one on reactivation).  If Achan's Sin Jr is not negated, then it resolves before the original could reactivate.

Offline joel_f

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 03:12:12 PM »
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thanks for the explanation Redoubter. I've had so many similar confusing scenarios that I simply did not know what to do with.

Offline joel_f

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 10:56:44 AM »
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Ok, similar question, but without the easy resolution of an effect that discards everything. If I have Holy of Holies activated (which prevents any abilities on character cards with the words "negate", "interrupt", or "prevent" on them) and make a rescue attempt with Moses (bbtn, but prevented by HoH) and then my opponent plays Men As Gods (which negates and discards an activated artifact) choosing HoH as the target, what happens?

Based on the logic above, MaG would finish resolving, discarding HoH after negating it, then Moses' bbtn would activate (since it's ongoing and no longer being prevented by HoH), which would then negate the ability on MaG, and that would bring HoH back into play but since it says "prevent" and not "negate" MaG would still not reactivate because Moses' bbtn would not be negated. Is that correct? What if HoH did say "negate" (I've encountered similar scenarios, but can't seem to recall specific cards atm, they seem to create infinite loops)?

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 11:41:31 AM »
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First, Holy of Holies cannot be negated (during the battle phase for the Priests version, ever for the D deck version).  So that situation will not work, so let's use an occupied Tower of Thebez instead, and a card like Samson's Sacrifice.  This would cause a loop, true, but there is a rule for characters activating that hasn't been accounted for.

If a character's ability is prevented when he enters battle, it cannot activate at a later time.  Even if the prevention is later negated, the card (Moses, in this case) was still prevented when it entered play, and the ability would not activate at all.  So in the example above, Sacrifice would blow up Tower (and a lot more), but Moses would not negate Sacrifice once Tower is negated.  He was already prevented, and his ability's 'shot' at activating is gone.

When you negate or interrupt a card, they can later reactivate.  Prevention is different.

Offline joel_f

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 05:45:08 PM »
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that makes more sense. Although I thought negate included prevention?

browarod

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Re: Confusing negates
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 09:41:25 PM »
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that makes more sense. Although I thought negate included prevention?
Cards that "negate all" have an inherent prevent of all associated special abilities played after them. A simple "negate" does not include a prevent.

 


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