Author Topic: Simeon and Isaiah Should Be Musicians (Read 5123 times)

Chris · « **on:** March 16, 2014, 07:22:06 PM »

Quote from: REG

A musician is defined as a person who wrote songs, lead a group of people in singing and worship, or who was described in the Bible as being a musician by profession.

An Enhancement involves music if it does one of three things:
 Represents all or part of a song or Psalm.
 Represents an event that was noted for its music.
 Represents a musical instrument or singing.

The first character I'll tackle is Simeon. His story can be found in Luke 2:22-40. Upon seeing and holding Jesus for the first time, he uttered what would become the Nunc Dimittis, which Redemption treats as involving music. Essentially, Simeon wrote a hymn, and thus, should be considered a musician under Redemption definitions.

Isaiah wrote four Servant Songs found in the book of Isaiah itself, which most Christians interpret as talking about the life and death of Christ. Again, Isaiah wrote songs, and thus should be considered a musician for the purposes of Redemption.

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2014, 08:11:16 PM »

Not knowing very much about the Nunc Dimittis, I just did some more research on all of this, and I very much agree with Chris. However, I also found that this is not a new discussion.

Quote from: Westy on August 12, 2013, 02:02:06 AM

So I was driving to Midwest Regionals when I get a text from Olijar saying that Simeon was a musician. The logic behind this is that he wrote Nunc Dimiitis. We started looking further and discovered that Isaiah was also a musician, as there are several Songs of Praise in Isaiah. So I built The Deck again at 3:30 a.m. the morning before MW Regionals, as both John Earley and Jordan Alstad agreed that they fit the definition of musician. However, at nationals there was dispute and it was agreed that they should look into it further before changing the REG identifiers, and the former definition stood.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on September 24, 2010, 06:27:05 AM

I can't argue with Isaiah, that's fairly solid actually, but as far as Mary, Zach and Simeon go, they weren't leading anyone in worship, and the bible never explicitly states that they wrote songs for others to sing, These are more like 'one-off's'. I'm sure if we expanded it to "Anyone who ever wrote two poetic lines, or Lead worship" we'd have Musicians as one of the largest themes.

Quote from: Gabe on September 24, 2010, 09:41:54 AM

The definition that Rob agree upon is "anyone who wrote/lead songs".

Isaiah (Isaiah 5:1) - Only indicates that Isaiah sang a song. Singing a song by itself doesn't meet the definition.

Mary (Luke 1:46) - This indicates to me that she sang a song, but that's all. That doesn't make her fit Redemption's definition.

Zacharias (Luke 1:67-68) - Ditto

Simeon (Luke 2:28-29) - Ditto

The scripture passages referenced don't indicate to me that any of these people ever wrote or lead songs.

Looking at the scriptures and history, I feel that it is very clear that Nunc Dimittis, Benedictus, and Magnificat were all new songs that were made for the particular circumstances the person found themselves in, to express their unique wonder and joy about the gifts God had given them. And as these 'new' songs are considered music for Redemption, it does not make sense why their authors would not be considered as having written music (which qualifies for a musician). For similar reasons, Isaiah should also be a musician.

I can't see why we keep having this discussion come up without these characters being made musicians...they fit the definition from everything I can see.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2014, 09:55:32 PM »

Also don't forget Habakkuk, since he had a song (the last chapter) that he specifically said he was giving to the leaders of worship.

DrowningFish · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2014, 10:04:03 PM »

I agree ^ Plus that'll make him fit into my Ruth+ musicians: D

jbeers285 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2014, 10:10:06 PM »

Although I agree that all 3 of these characters should be muscians I am scared to think of the combos which may arise. :-)

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2014, 01:46:00 AM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on March 16, 2014, 10:10:06 PM

Although I agree that all 3 of these characters should be muscians I am scared to think of the combos which may arise. :-)

Fear the Music.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2014, 09:28:58 AM »

I've honestly given up on this ever happening but it 100% should.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2014, 04:14:53 PM »

Elders! Where are you?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2014, 04:21:11 PM »

Hard at work on the next set

I can't speak to anything but the status quo on this one. The characters in question are not Musicians, and that is unlikely to change unless you can find more or new evidence supporting their cases.

Red · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2014, 05:11:10 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 17, 2014, 04:21:11 PM

Hard at work on the next set

I can't speak to anything but the status quo on this one. The characters in question are not Musicians, and that is unlikely to change unless you can find more or new evidence supporting their cases.

Change the definition. Because currently they fit it. Writing of music=Musician under Redemption standpoints.

Chris · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2014, 05:35:48 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 17, 2014, 04:21:11 PM

I can't speak to anything but the status quo on this one. The characters in question are not Musicians, and that is unlikely to change unless you can find more or new evidence supporting their cases.

Has there been a serious thread since the one Redoubter pointed to? I don't see how Isaiah, Simeon, or Habakkuk don't fall under this definition. Both Isaiah and Habakkuk clearly wrote music which qualifies them, and Simeon is universally believed to have written the Nunc Dimittus, not just reciting it. There's nothing in any version of the Bible I can find that suggests Simeon that when Simeon said it, he was just reciting something somebody else wrote. I recognize that you (at least last I had heard) are in favor of making them both Musicians, but I really think that if they're not going to be considered musicians for Redemption purposes, there needs to be a good reason and the definition of musician probably needs tweaked.

Praeceps · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2014, 06:48:06 PM »

If nothing else, add "except Isaiah, Simeon, and Habakkuk" to the definition to quell the arguments because right now your only argument is "we don't feel like making them Musicians so they won't be."

Redoubter · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2014, 07:00:24 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on March 17, 2014, 06:48:06 PM

If nothing else, add "except Isaiah, Simeon, and Habakkuk" to the definition to quell the arguments because right now your only argument is "we don't feel like making them Musicians so they won't be."

Don't forget Mary and Zacharias...

Josh · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2014, 12:11:30 PM »

I've been on the "Habakkuk for musician" party train for years now, and even seeing the "definition" of musician above, it still seems pretty clear to me that Habakkuk was a musician.

Habakkuk 3 concludes (NASB): "For the choir director, on my stringed instruments." So he had stringed instruments, and he wrote a song, and gave it to a choir director, with the (reasonably-assumed) intention of having it performed for people.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2014, 02:32:21 PM »

Haha, this is especially humorous to me as I put Habakkuk 3 to music several years ago after discovering this little "hidden gem" in the scriptures. Ironically me reading Habakkuk 3 was brought up by a roommate trying to convince me Habakkuk was a musician for Redemption purposes...

Praeceps · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2014, 09:50:09 PM »

I can understand wanting to keep the status quo the status quo, but when it contradicts what the rules/definitions say, isn't the status quo supposed to change?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** March 26, 2014, 11:34:21 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 17, 2014, 09:28:58 AM

I've honestly given up on this ever happening but it 100% should.

Chris · « **Reply #17 on:** March 26, 2014, 06:45:29 PM »

Quote from: Westy on March 26, 2014, 11:34:21 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 17, 2014, 09:28:58 AM
I've honestly given up on this ever happening but it 100% should.

Praeceps · « **Reply #18 on:** March 26, 2014, 09:13:15 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 17, 2014, 04:21:11 PM

Hard at work on the next set

I can't speak to anything but the status quo on this one. The characters in question are not Musicians, and that is unlikely to change unless you can find more or new evidence supporting their cases.

Just for clarification: does the REG definition of Musician count as new or more evidence? If not, does this mean that we can ignore REG definitions about what can be classified as what if we don't like what it has to say (that is the precedence that you are setting here...)?

Korunks · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2014, 03:16:31 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on March 26, 2014, 09:13:15 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 17, 2014, 04:21:11 PM
Hard at work on the next set

I can't speak to anything but the status quo on this one. The characters in question are not Musicians, and that is unlikely to change unless you can find more or new evidence supporting their cases.

Just for clarification: does the REG definition of Musician count as new or more evidence? If not, does this mean that we can ignore REG definitions about what can be classified as what if we don't like what it has to say (that is the precedence that you are setting here...)?

Likely not, it will probably linger as an inconsistency in the game because no one will be bothered to deal with it. I mean we have as much evidence for these guys to be musicians as practically any other musician in the game of Redemption, but they can't be musicians just because.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2014, 03:32:38 PM »

I think the PtB's should be hung, drawn and quartered once we have completed our coup.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2014, 03:54:10 PM »

As long as I end up in charge you can do whatever you want

Chris · « **Reply #22 on:** March 27, 2014, 04:16:21 PM »

I do know that one of the Elders has made a post on the other side of the boards with this discussion, and that it has not seen much activity, as few Elders are overly active at the moment. However, Underwood has gone on record suggesting that "silence is assumed consent." If Elders are silent on the subject and there is no resistance to it on the other side of the boards as of right now, I'm forced to conclude that we all agree that Simeon and Isaiah should be musicians.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #23 on:** March 27, 2014, 04:28:24 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 27, 2014, 03:54:10 PM

As long as I end up in charge you can do whatever you want

You're wearing blue, so you'll have to go.

Quote from: Chris on March 27, 2014, 04:16:21 PM

I'm forced to conclude that we all agree that Simeon and Isaiah should be musicians.

They are musicians here in Florida. Perhaps you guys should leave your backwards-thinking states and come visit the Sonshine State.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** March 27, 2014, 04:32:01 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 27, 2014, 03:54:10 PM

As long as I end up in charge you can do whatever you want

Says the Dome.

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Author Topic: Simeon and Isaiah Should Be Musicians (Read 5123 times)

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk