Author Topic: Silly Women + DoU (Read 2358 times)

Josh · « **on:** August 25, 2016, 01:07:04 PM »

Does Silly Women capture herself to opponent's LoB after playing DoU? Technically she says "After battle...", so she sits in your Discard until the Battle Phase ends, out of play.

Silly Women - "Discard a good Enhancement. After battle, capture this character to an opponent’s Land of Bondage. Cannot be prevented."

Death of Unrighteous - "Shuffle all Lost Souls and sites in holder's Land of Bondage into owner's draw pile. Discard all Evil Characters in battle."

kariusvega · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2016, 01:27:30 PM »

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2016, 03:39:24 PM »

There are only a few scenarios that would ever come up and I can't think of this distinction mattering in any of them. Maybe if you played DoU to generate a soul just in time to SoG but he plays Harvest Time and wins before SW is captured to play SoG on.

Josh · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2016, 04:05:57 PM »

My question is, how does Silly Women capture herself if she's out of play? If she gets underdecked by Trumpet and Torches or shuffled by Faith of Abel, do you search your deck for her and capture her to opponent's LoB after battle?

Eragon5 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2016, 04:53:34 PM »

I think it was ruled it wouldn't trigger on the basis of a pending trigger that is no longer in play.

kariusvega · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2016, 05:00:47 PM »

same way assyrian survivor captures after dou

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2016, 05:17:28 PM »

Woo! They totally chickened out on exchange just in time for us to discover a new implied search.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2016, 05:17:55 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 25, 2016, 05:00:47 PM

same way assyrian survivor captures after dou

Assyrian Survivor is different because dou causes it to be defeated and triggers it (I believe) before it gets moved to the discard pile while SW's trigger (battle being over) would happen after she already was moved to discard.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2016, 05:18:54 PM »

There is no difference.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2016, 05:37:00 PM »

I went looking to see if anything similar to this has been asked before and while I didn't find a direct answer to SW, I did find one saying AS's ability is an instead and he never goes to discard pile like SW does so it is different. As for the original question, I don't understand how dou is different than an opponent's discard or any other discard. Her trigger happens in the phase after battle has ended (Unless I completely misunderstand after the battle effects), so if she is removed from play during battle phase I don't see how she can activate.

kariusvega · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2016, 05:49:50 PM »

silly women's ability completes during battle resolution, like assyrian survivor

it doesn't matter where she ends up, unless she is interrupted or negated, she is captured.

she could be removed from the game but if her ability wasn't negated or interrupted in the process, she is still captured

Josh · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2016, 06:49:45 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 25, 2016, 05:00:47 PM

same way assyrian survivor captures after dou

They are worded different. Survivor captures when he is defeated. Silly Women captures herself after battle. Battle doesn't end when an EC plays DoU.

Abilities default to play, and Silly Women isn't an Instead, so she should only capture herself if she remains in play as a character after battle.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2016, 09:20:21 AM »

You check for defeat during resolution.

kariusvega · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2016, 12:53:22 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 26, 2016, 09:20:21 AM

You check for defeat during resolution.

Exactly, the same thing is happening. Dou/survivor goes to dc pile, then during battle resolution is captured, same as silly women. You can just decide how much of the motions you want to do and most people go straight to the capture when they play dou :p it's just like if survivor was under decked, did he still get captured?

Yes he did because there was a pending ability which needed to complete, doesn't matter if he is out of play.

Same with silly women only difference is she can be interrupted/negated unlike survivor who is cbi

There is no after battle definition I can find in the reg 4.0 so I'm merely explaining my understanding of similar logic here based on all abilities activated in the battle phase completing at battle resolution (which I believe is how I've played it on lackey with elders- like The Guardian)

Josh · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2016, 02:05:10 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 26, 2016, 09:20:21 AM

You check for defeat during resolution.

True, but incomplete.

Quote from: The REG

Defeat

An Evil Character is defeated when:

● The Evil Character is removed from battle because of a special ability (except for mutual destruction by mutual removal).
● The battle ends with the Evil Character being discarded by the numbers of the Hero(es) in battle.
● The battle ends with the Evil Character being ignored by a Hero or Heroes in battle and no non-ignored Evil Characters in battle are defeating the Hero.

Survivor is defeated when DoU tries to discard him, so Survivor's "Instead" ability kicks in and captures him to opponent's LoB. He never hits the discard pile.

Silly Women is worded differently - she has no "Instead" ability. She merely says "After battle, capture this character to an opponent’s Land of Bondage." That is a pending trigger, and the battle ending is what activates the trigger.

Because it is non-optional, the ongoing ability persists after Silly Women is removed from play; however, because card abilities default to play, she has to be a character in play to capture herself. If she was discarded by DoU, she's not in play, and therefore can't capture herself.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2016, 01:00:00 AM »

She was targeted for a pending ability while she was in play and a valid target. Unless that was interrupted, I can't see any way around it completing.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2016, 10:31:02 AM »

Because she stops being a valid target when she goes to the discard pile.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #17 on:** August 29, 2016, 10:13:32 PM »

Without an interrupt, that's not a thing in Redemption.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #18 on:** August 29, 2016, 11:20:16 PM »

A card has to be in a targetable location when targeted initially and when the ability completes. Another example besides SW is any variety of archer (Kill something in a territory, discard the archer after battle). If an archer used his ability but was then set aside or underdecked, you wouldn't pull him out of set aside or off the bottom and put him in discard. SW being discarded is exactly the same as an archer getting underdecked or set aside.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2016, 11:21:47 PM »

Archer has been being played incorrectly it seems.

*EDIT* By some. I have always done exactly what you just described with Archer.

Josh · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2016, 08:15:42 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 27, 2016, 01:00:00 AM

She was targeted for a pending ability while she was in play and a valid target. Unless that was interrupted, I can't see any way around it completing.

Easy. Abilities default to play, so her ability can be read as "After battle, capture this character in play to an opponent's land of bondage". If she's not in play, there's no capture.

Either way, we need an Elder to review this.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2016, 12:09:36 PM »

For what it's worth, when Silly Women came out, I believed it to be as jmhartz says. When I started playing though, some of my opponents (probably JD) played it as he suggested, and after thinking about it, I thought it might be similar to Survivor, so I didn't question it. However, I think I still line up more with jmhartz view point, for the reasons he stated. I would like to see what other elders think on the question though.

The Guardian · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2016, 02:14:41 PM »

I recall questioning the Silly Women/SSS play where the souls were shuffled even though SW ended up in my LoB. It seemed to me that the cost had been insteaded but I wasn't entirely certain one way or the other.

kariusvega · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2016, 03:22:50 PM »

yeah i mean honestly i could see it going either way. makes sense with the in play idea but there are also a lot of other things that warp around the defaults to play logic so obviously needs discussion!

Josh · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2016, 03:53:43 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 30, 2016, 03:22:50 PM

there are also a lot of other things that warp around the defaults to play logic so obviously needs discussion!

The thing is, other abilities that specify when "defaults to play" doesn't apply always have verbiage saying so, or are defined as such in the REG. Shrine and MLaMG say "play or set-aside", Noah says "from territory or hand", etc.

Silly Women doesn't have any special text like "Regardless of location" or "this character in play, discard, or deck" or anything like that. And I don't know of any rules that make pending triggers "regardless of location".

The Archers are a comparable example, and I've always played them that if they aren't in play after battle, you don't discard them. Everyone I've played against has played them this way as well.

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Author Topic: Silly Women + DoU (Read 2358 times)

kariusvega

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