Cactus Game Design Message Boards

and having an Elder say so would be great.
    again, thanks.

First, be sure to edit your original post rather than double-posting if no one replied first

Second, Prof U (who is an Elder too, so that helps your second post ) is correct that if they are protected from discard in general, then they are protected from any discard, including by game rule for having a toughness of 0 or less.

Third, decreases and increases are added together to determine the final */*, and you can be negative at any point in either number.  All negatives get added to all positives to determine the final result.

Finally, when a character is placed in battle, his ability resolves before the game checks for discard by the numbers (which he wouldn't be protected from anymore).

So all of that together, we get:

If a character is protected in territory from discard and has a toughness of 0 or less, like in your scenario, then they will not be discarded by game rule while in the protected location.  Game rule states that a character has not entered battle until they are placed in the field of battle for a rescue/battle challenge or a block AND their ability resolves completely.  So the ability resolves before the character is actually in battle and no longer protected.  At that moment is when the character would be discarded by game rule for a toughness of 0 or less, if applicable.

So, to your example of a decreased Babylonian Soldiers, if Headquarters of Riblah is out then the Babs are protected from discard (including by game rule) while in territory.  Once the Babs are selected to be used to block a rescue or battle challenge, the player places them in the field of battle and then completes their ability fully.  In this case, this may result in an increase of X/X.  After all abilities on the Babs resolves, then they are in battle and no longer protected.  Now, there is a check of toughness, and if the total of the decrease (which can send their toughness negative) added to the increase (which must overcome the negative and bring the toughness to 1 to avoid the discard) is 0 or less, then the character is discarded by game rule.  Note that the battle may not be over if you somehow played something that would give the hero special initiative (as that is resolved as normal), but your Babs would be discarded and you couldn't play anything to stop it (game rule causing the discard, not an interruptable ability).

I would like to know what happens if an evil character has first strike?

First strike only comes into play in Battle Resolution or to determine initiative.  If a character is discarded before Battle Resolution, either by abilities or game rule, then it would not be used.  If your EC were protected from discard and survived to Battle Resolution, then it would be used to determine the winner as normal.  Otherwise, it has no effect.

Prof U is correct that HQ will keep a decreased Babylonian from being discarded in your territory. However, as soon as that character leaves your territory they will be discarded immediately. The special ability will still activate, but the character is no longer in play when it does. Your decreased Babylonian Soldier would no longer be in play when the increase takes place.

Quote from: REG

If the toughness of a character is decreased to a value of zero or less, that character is discarded immediately.

Per the REG also, a character has not entered battle until they are placed in the field of battle and their abilities have completed fully.  It then follows that they are not in battle until the ability (which may result in an increase of X/X) resolves.  As such, the following question arises:

Can discard by game rule insert between abilities?  That is, do discards by game rule always occur if the state of toughness <= 0 ever exists (and the source is not interrupted or negated) even if the abilities being resolved would result in positive toughness in the end?

For instance, Siege is played to band in all EC and then all opponent's heroes. Injuring Demon is one of the blockers (decrease a hero 2/2) targeting a hero with 2 toughness, say, Ahimaaz 4/2.  At this point, he is in territory with abilities 4/0.  However, he would be banded in by the ability on Siege, along with all other heroes for that player.  One character is Strengthening Angel (increase all human heroes 1/1).  There is no break in the abilities, as they all must resolve before Siege is completed.  In the end, Ahimaaz would have abilities 4/1 due to Strengthening Angel, but he would go through a point in the abilities order when he was 4/0.  Would he be discarded?  Would it matter what order he and Strengthening Angel entered battle?

So the crux of my questions is, does discard by game rule insert itself, and if so, when?