Author Topic: shuffling deck? (Read 3702 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** May 01, 2010, 02:48:56 PM »

is there a limit on how long you can shuffle deck? what about in RTS?

The Warrior · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2010, 02:52:13 PM »

i said shuffle means shuffle once not as much as u want... in game with RTSmaniac in a Swiss game

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2010, 02:58:36 PM »

In RTS there is now "how long" because you click a button and it's done. I think there is a limit on how long you can shuffle, but I forget it. Whatever it is, it needs to be shortened. T1 timeouts should never happen.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2010, 03:02:50 PM »

is it ok to shuffle deck more than once? say three times?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2010, 03:14:45 PM »

In RTS it doesn't matter because it's instantaneous. In a physical game, no. Time restrictions don't account for overkill shuffling.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2010, 11:06:55 PM »

BUT IRL the host can DQ you for stalling if its REALLY obvious.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** May 02, 2010, 12:41:23 AM »

this conversation resulted from playing a game on ROOT and me wanting to hit the shuffle button 3 times b/c i know that if i hit it just once then i have i higher chance of drawing the same card again. i dont know why theres a higher chance, there just is- glitch i guess. Anyways, then warrior starts having a hissy (is this how u spell it?) and there you go. I dont even know why I have to request to shuffle anyways? maybe we should start a thread on how the new RTS can be better...

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #7 on:** May 02, 2010, 02:19:14 AM »

Shuffle needs to be by request, otherwise you could just "accidentally" hit shuffle after your SoG gets revealed.

xCaLeBx · « **Reply #8 on:** May 02, 2010, 07:23:15 AM »

I will say if you do it every game (like Underwood) just ask. I personally have no problem when prof does it because it's in his religion

hes trying to please the RTS gods or something

but Warrior shouldn't be having a hissy fit if you did it 3 times real fast at the very start

The Warrior · « **Reply #9 on:** May 02, 2010, 11:55:40 AM »

Quote from: xCaLeBx on May 02, 2010, 07:23:15 AM

I will say if you do it every game (like Underwood) just ask. I personally have no problem when prof does it because it's in his religion hes trying to please the RTS gods or something but Warrior shouldn't be having a hissy fit if you did it 3 times real fast at the very start

you who would not disparage my intelligence?

The Warrior · « **Reply #10 on:** May 02, 2010, 11:58:18 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 02, 2010, 12:41:23 AM

this conversation resulted from playing a game on ROOT and me wanting to hit the shuffle button 3 times b/c i know that if i hit it just once then i have i higher chance of drawing the same card again. i dont know why theres a higher chance, there just is- glitch i guess. Anyways, then warrior starts having a hissy (is this how u spell it?) and there you go. I dont even know why I have to request to shuffle anyways? maybe we should start a thread on how the new RTS can be better...

i think this would actually be cool

D-man · « **Reply #11 on:** May 02, 2010, 03:56:45 PM »

Quote from: xCaLeBx on May 02, 2010, 07:23:15 AM

I will say if you do it every game (like Underwood) just ask. I personally have no problem when prof does it because it's in his religion hes trying to please the RTS gods or something but Warrior shouldn't be having a hissy fit if you did it 3 times real fast at the very start

It's common RTS practice to "manually" (pushing the "shuffle deck" button") shuffle as well as "automatically" after performing actions involving your deck. Not just Prof U.

It might get tiresome if someone shuffles in this way three times every time they look at their deck, but it's not that hard to let your opponent do it once.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #12 on:** May 02, 2010, 04:10:07 PM »

Warrior did you really get irritated over an instantaneous shuffle? If someone hits the shuffle button, lets say 10 times in rts, its still under 10 seconds!

The Warrior · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2010, 04:30:27 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on May 02, 2010, 04:10:07 PM

Warrior did you really get irritated over an instantaneous shuffle? If someone hits the shuffle button, lets say 10 times in rts, its still under 10 seconds!

To clarify i was not irritated.... i merely thought that shuffle was 1 shuffle... the way the card are after u shuffle once or thrice is very different and can change the tide of the game or to prevent the seemingly more possible to get different cards glitch/superstition. i simply didn't want to disobey the rules or give him a unfair advantage

D-man · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2010, 04:35:04 PM »

Shuffling more can't help him any more than it helps you. Shuffling is a randomizer, so the more you do it, the more random the order of the cards is.

The Warrior · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2010, 04:37:03 PM »

Quote from: D-man on May 02, 2010, 04:35:04 PM

Shuffling more can't help him any more than it helps you. Shuffling is a randomizer, so the more you do it, the more random the order of the cards is.

how is one randomization more random that the thricefold?

D-man · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2010, 04:55:04 PM »

If you're asking how three shuffles are more random than one...in real life games, few shuffling methods are completely random, thus they must be performed multiple times. In RTS games, many people don't think that RTS does a very good job of shuffling, so they do it twice or three times. In any case, shuffling more on RTS shouldn't do any harm.

The Warrior · « **Reply #17 on:** May 02, 2010, 05:01:42 PM »

Quote from: D-man on May 02, 2010, 04:55:04 PM

If you're asking how three shuffles are more random than one...in real life games, few shuffling methods are completely random, thus they must be performed multiple times. In RTS games, many people don't think that RTS does a very good job of shuffling, so they do it twice or three times. In any case, shuffling more on RTS shouldn't do any harm.

bonus game?

Red · « **Reply #18 on:** May 02, 2010, 05:33:00 PM »

to shed more light on why this is done:the RNG in RTS is not very good so it takes about 3 shuffles to really get it going.

Master KChief · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2010, 06:04:04 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 02, 2010, 12:41:23 AM

this conversation resulted from playing a game on ROOT and me wanting to hit the shuffle button 3 times b/c i know that if i hit it just once then i have i higher chance of drawing the same card again. i dont know why theres a higher chance, there just is- glitch i guess.

any hard data on this? absolutely not.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2010, 07:37:27 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on May 02, 2010, 06:04:04 PM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 02, 2010, 12:41:23 AM
this conversation resulted from playing a game on ROOT and me wanting to hit the shuffle button 3 times b/c i know that if i hit it just once then i have i higher chance of drawing the same card again. i dont know why theres a higher chance, there just is- glitch i guess.

any hard data on this? absolutely not.

Hard data? No. But I do agree that I have seen the phenomenon of drawing a card that was just shuffled in the next three cards. Most recently when I drew Wrath of Satan vs. Gabe after shuffling it in when he played Mayhem (which of course I'm not complaining about). It could have been a coincidence of course, but I've seen the same phenomenon a lot more often than I seemingly should.

Master KChief · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2010, 08:14:48 PM »

shuffling a single card is different than shuffling the entire deck. if you just shuffle a single card, it merely takes the entire deck and randomly inserts it somewhere in there (which, by all means of being random, still doesnt matter at all). if you wish to shuffle the entire deck, you must choose the option of shuffling the entire deck after a single card shuffle. again, there is no hard data at all that can support a single shuffle being any less random than a 2+ shuffle. i have seen the same card being drawn off both a single shuffle and a multiple shuffle, so its all sums up to mere coincidence.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2010, 11:27:25 PM »

all i know is it has happened more than Id like to mention how many times id shuffle a card in and it come right back out. in my scenerio in this game it was a hopper when my opponent didnt have any ls's. I felt it was not fair to my opponent so i wanted to make sure i shuffled more through out the game when the time presented itself. oh well.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2010, 02:50:58 AM »

This just happened to me tonight in my game as well. I shuffled in my Hopper, and it came out on my next draw. Later in the game, my opponent shuffled in their Holy Grail (due to Captured Ark), and it also came out on their next draw. This was twice in the same game.

Quote from: xCaLeBx on May 02, 2010, 07:23:15 AM

I will say if you do it every game (like Underwood) just ask. I personally have no problem when prof does it because it's in his religion hes trying to please the RTS gods or something

I do always ask before doing the triple reset at the beginning of a game, and I do suspect that the RNG of the RTS program has a flaw in it. I can't prove it of course, but I think there is enough anecdotal evidence to make it worth a few clicks of the mouse

Perhaps, I'm biased because of the extremely flawed RNG that existed in WinRISK 3.1, which I used to play back in the day. You could get CRAZY high dice rolls if you knew how to abuse it. Click the battle for 1 dice roll, if you lost 2 armies then keep clicking. If you ever get ahead in the casualties, then click off the country to end the battle, and then restart it again. The computer would then forget that you were ahead and would restart as if everything was balanced.

adotson85 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2010, 03:39:41 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 03, 2010, 02:50:58 AM

This just happened to me tonight in my game as well. I shuffled in my Hopper, and it came out on my next draw. Later in the game, my opponent shuffled in their Holy Grail (due to Captured Ark), and it also came out on their next draw. This was twice in the same game.

Quote from: xCaLeBx on May 02, 2010, 07:23:15 AM
I will say if you do it every game (like Underwood) just ask. I personally have no problem when prof does it because it's in his religion hes trying to please the RTS gods or something
I do always ask before doing the triple reset at the beginning of a game, and I do suspect that the RNG of the RTS program has a flaw in it. I can't prove it of course, but I think there is enough anecdotal evidence to make it worth a few clicks of the mouse

Perhaps, I'm biased because of the extremely flawed RNG that existed in WinRISK 3.1, which I used to play back in the day. You could get CRAZY high dice rolls if you knew how to abuse it. Click the battle for 1 dice roll, if you lost 2 armies then keep clicking. If you ever get ahead in the casualties, then click off the country to end the battle, and then restart it again. The computer would then forget that you were ahead and would restart as if everything was balanced.

I agree I have had some unusually unusual draws in RTS. It may just be in my head, but it does seem that the triple reset helps.

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Author Topic: shuffling deck? (Read 3702 times)