Author Topic: Shuffle and Set-Aside  (Read 53356 times)

Offline Bryon

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #150 on: September 06, 2008, 12:32:39 AM »
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"Captured characters" are not characters.  Don't treat them as such.

Also, road apples are not apples, cow pies are not pies, and peanuts are not nuts (botanically, anyway).

"captured character" is a subgroup of Lost Soul, not a subgroup of character.


Offline SirNobody

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2008, 02:48:01 AM »
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Hey,

"Captured characters" are not characters.  Don't treat them as such.

"captured character" is a subgroup of Lost Soul, not a subgroup of character.

I completely agree on the captured characters are not characters part.  But as far as captured characters and lost souls, I believe it would be more accurate to say they they are two distinct groups that have a significant portion of overlap.

Tschow,

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The Schaef

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2008, 08:47:28 AM »
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Agreed.  A Captured Character is a Captured Character which, when in the Land of Bondage, is also a Lost Soul.

Offline Bryon

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #153 on: September 06, 2008, 11:23:23 AM »
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Yes, you are both right.  I forgot about captured characters in RC.

The Schaef

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #154 on: September 06, 2008, 11:32:22 AM »
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and Tartarsauce.

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2008, 11:46:43 AM »
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Though, STAMP would argue that a captured demon is ONLY a captured demon, and not a redeemable soul.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2008, 03:42:43 PM »
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I am Scott Stamp, and I approve this message.
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2008, 09:45:47 PM »
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"Captured characters" are not characters.  Don't treat them as such.

Also, road apples are not apples, cow pies are not pies, and peanuts are not nuts (botanically, anyway).

"captured character" is a subgroup of Lost Soul, not a subgroup of character.



Okay so captured characters cant "hold" there weapons in raiders camp correct? Is that the only reason why the weapon is discarded?

The Schaef

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #158 on: September 06, 2008, 10:12:58 PM »
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I don't understand what you mean by "only reason".  Characters hold weapons.  Non-characters do not hold weapons.  A captured character cannot hold a weapon any more than a Lost Soul or a Curse or a Dominant could hold it.

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #159 on: September 07, 2008, 03:29:00 PM »
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I don't understand what you mean by "only reason".  Characters hold weapons.  Non-characters do not hold weapons.  A captured character cannot hold a weapon any more than a Lost Soul or a Curse or a Dominant could hold it.
aww does that mean no warrior class doubt? ;)
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #160 on: September 07, 2008, 03:59:09 PM »
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I don't understand what you mean by "only reason".  Characters hold weapons.  Non-characters do not hold weapons.  A captured character cannot hold a weapon any more than a Lost Soul or a Curse or a Dominant could hold it.

Can Heroes hold evil weapons?

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #161 on: September 07, 2008, 04:10:40 PM »
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Obviously not.
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #162 on: September 07, 2008, 04:46:50 PM »
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Can Heroes hold evil weapons?

No, due to the rule that evil enhancements may not be played on heroes, and visa-versa.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #163 on: September 07, 2008, 07:43:27 PM »
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Can Heroes hold evil weapons?

No, due to the rule that evil enhancements may not be played on heroes, and visa-versa.

What if the weapon is played when the character was a evil character, and now the character is a hero what happens to the weapon?

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2008, 08:12:01 PM »
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Weapons placed on Characters convert with the character, provided its ONLY from Hero <-> EC conversion.

Thats another game rule.

The Schaef

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2008, 09:43:10 PM »
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... which is specifically written out in the rulebook.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #166 on: September 09, 2008, 05:38:19 PM »
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I was just making the point that in one situation the weapon is discarded because of the bearer not being eligible, and in conversion the weapon by follows the character even though the bearer isn't eligible only by game rule why make a game rule for one and not the other? 


Besides all that, my thinking is when a character is in the LOB it is a subset of a captured character because it is being treated as a lost soul, why isn't the captured character in raiders camp a subset of a hero? Raiders camp changes the destination of the hero, canceling out treat as lost soul. Raiders camp should be an exception because there is a hero in there and it isn't being treated as a lost soul. And if it is a subset of a hero than the hero can hold a weapon in raiders camp.

The Schaef

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #167 on: September 09, 2008, 05:47:07 PM »
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I was just making the point that in one situation the weapon is discarded because of the bearer not being eligible, and in conversion the weapon by follows the character even though the bearer isn't eligible only by game rule why make a game rule for one and not the other?

um... why do you say the bearer isn't eligible?  A character can hold a weapon.  That is the rule.
A Hero is a character.  A Hero holding a weapon follows the rule properly.
An Evil Character is a character.  An Evil Character holding a weapon follows the rule properly.
A Lost Soul is not a character.  A Lost Soul NOT holding a weapon follows the rule properly.

So where is the problem?

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why isn't the captured character in raiders camp a subset of a hero? Raiders camp changes the destination of the hero

So I can band to one of your Heroes in Raider's Camp?

Offline sk

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #168 on: September 09, 2008, 06:10:50 PM »
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Also, from a logic perspective, would you allow a captured enemy to continue holding his weapon?
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #169 on: September 09, 2008, 06:23:26 PM »
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Also, from a logic perspective, would you allow a captured enemy to continue holding his weapon?
I've heard this somewhere before... hmm

It is a character.

Captured Character =/= Character. You cant band to a captured character can you? You cant CM a captured character can you? Then why should a placed enhancement remain on them?
Thats like saying: The elephant is fat. why should I put my cat on a diet? Besides what cards say may band to a male cahracter? (I thing I know what you are trying to say though) I cant band to a hero in raiders camp because it cannot be targeted as a hero. I played the weapon before when it was a hero, I see no reason why the weapon should be discarded, Shaefs suggestion supports this.
what kinda captors would allow someone to carry a spear around?

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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #170 on: September 09, 2008, 07:21:42 PM »
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Hey,

A Lost Soul is not a character.

As long as you don't ask the second edition rulebook.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheHobbit13

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #171 on: September 12, 2008, 04:24:47 PM »
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Also, from a logic perspective, would you allow a captured enemy to continue holding his weapon?

No I wouldn't.


"So I can band to one of your Heroes in Raider's Camp?"

You cant because captured heroes arn't characters(game rule), I think it is more intuituve to say the captured character in raiders camp is still a character but it cant hold weapons for obvious reasons. In this case you still cant band to my character because the hero is a captured hero (cant be targeted as just a hero).

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #172 on: September 12, 2008, 04:48:01 PM »
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Quote
You cant because captured heroes arn't characters(game rule)
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The Schaef

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #173 on: September 13, 2008, 07:53:58 AM »
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You cant because captured heroes arn't characters(game rule)

I know that already.  I was asking you to think through all the implications of saying a captured Hero in Raider's Camp is still a "Hero".

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I think it is more intuituve to say the captured character in raiders camp is still a character but it cant hold weapons for obvious reasons.

I do not know what those obvious reasons are, that's why I need you to explain them to me.  As far as I can tell, you want the captured-but-still-a-character to have a rule saying he can't hold weapons just because he shouldn't be able to hold weapons, and all I've been hearing lately is that having rules (supposedly) just for the sake of having rules is a dumb idea and bad for the game.  So I don't understand why we should change captured characters to regular characters and then make new rules about how they are treated in RC or Spiritual Realm or Tartaros.

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In this case you still cant band to my character because the hero is a captured hero (cant be targeted as just a hero).

Again, I don't understand why you want the captured guy to be called a Hero but not allow him to be targeted by things which target a Hero.  That being the case, there's no real reason to bother calling him a Hero in the first place.

Referring to them as characters makes these cards targetable just like any other character, and creating new exceptions to the in-play targeting rule creates a needless extra layer of complexity.

Referring to them only as "captured characters" as a special type means you cannot use cards that target characters (which is what we want) but you can still apply container/holder rules (which is what we want) and target "captured characters" as written on the special ability (which is what we want).  The natural consequence of that is, not being a character, they cannot hold a weapon.

This is no different than Lost Souls being "converted" into Redeemed Souls, a special type of card which only appears in-game when a certain event takes place (i.e. it being rescued), which does not allow them to be hit by cards that target Lost Souls, but allows references to "Redeemed Souls" on the special ability (Falling Away, Garden Tomb).

TheHobbit13

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Re: Shuffle and Set-Aside
« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2008, 01:41:54 PM »
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"and all I've been hearing lately is that having rules (supposedly) just for the sake of having rules is a dumb idea and bad for the game"


I thought before entering this discussion that the only reason the weapon is discarded is because if you put a person in jail they cant keep a weapon. I guess that isn't the case . I want the captured character to keep there weapons, but I see that is an argument I cannot win. So I will settle for this.  "Captured heroes cant be targeted as Hero's but they are still heroes". What's wrong with that? That's more intuitive then saying when the hero is captured it is no longer a hero,because that rule is a shallow definition that is hard to completely grasp (My suggestion explains more withought changing anything). that way of saying it is actually more confusing then my proposal(although that is a matter of oppinion). Do you understand why a "captured hero in raiders camp isn't a hero or character" rule can be confusing?  :) When I go to the zoo and look at an elephant your telling me it's not an elephant?  ;) See what I mean?

 Byron has told me to play go fish if I wanted to play a simple game. So why is it an issue to make this minor change in the game? It doesn't effect anything it is just a different understanding of what a captured hero is.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 01:51:26 PM by TheHobbit13 »

 


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