Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote

Destructive Sin
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Ecclesiastes 9:18 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Note the bolded part. The word owner refers to the Hero, not the Fortress. The special ability would be equivalent to: "Negate special abilities on that Hero and the good Fortresses controlled by its owner."

This argument strikes me as much more palatable--in that one could say "owner's" is just identifying a player. If one did so, you get around the need to redefine owner for teams. That still seems to me to be a grammatical stretch, but not outside the realm of standard usage.

Also, the question that came up was not quite as Matt described. Bill wanted to use my PAB which was in our shared LoB (due to the Site Guard LS in Promised Land) to search his deck for Philistine Garrison. So this would be exactly the same situation as Justin responded to, except it would be my teammate instead of my opponent, which I would think would make it even more likely to work.

Sorry, I misremembered the precise scenario.

If he was using the PAB to search his own draw pile, then this is exactly like the ruling that Justin made previously.  In that case, it probably should have been allowed.

I guess my issue is with the original PAB ruling, then, which did not strike me as particularly official when I looked it over prior to the tournament. Justin was the only "authority" who answered and his response was basically, "I have no problem with that" which didn;t strike me as a ringing endorsement of the idea. When PAB specifically states you can exchange it with another card in your deck or discard pile, I really don't see how that can mean I can take a card from one discard pile and place PAB in another discard pile. That discussion, however, must get moved back to the other thread.

FWIW, neither of those two scenarios had a huge impact on the game, and it didn't appear that there were any hard feelings on either side (except maybe the thirst for, and eventual acquisition of, revenge by the losing team following the tournament).

Agreed. I am asking not because of any deep-seated animosity but for two reasons 1) I want to know how to rule these scenarios in the future, and 2) I said I would. It's always nice to cross-check any controversial rulings after the tourney.

Overall TEAMS was a lot of fun, and the category helped me forget my dismal performance in the first two rounds of T1-2P, which took me out of contention for placing before I was able to win a few games. I look forward to playing TEAMS again.

I also agree that TEAMS is a lot of fun. It is pretty much the only event I have played this year. Hats off to Prof Underwood and M. Wolfe for this most amusing diversion.

I thought Fortresses were shared (read: contorlled by both people) regardless of the "your" rule. So even "holder's" Fortress or "his" Fortress could refer to yoru teammate's Fortress. Otherwise, how can I place/remove cards from my teammate's Storehouse/Goshen/KotW, etc. if I don't control it?

My gut reaction on this is that they are shared, but that they are only controlled by both teammates due to a TEAMS game rule.  Therefore, if a special ability refers to a "holder's" fortress, that it would still specifically target a fortress that the player actually "owned".  Of course if a special ability refers to "your" fortress, then the "your" rule comes into play and would then refer to any fortresses that the team had in play.

I had one more question concerning "your" in TEAMS: If a card says "your" heroes, "your" Evil characters, or "your" anything else that is not shared among teammates, does the ability of the card automatically extend to all cards of both teammates, or does there have to be a choice of who "your" is referring to? For example, does my Magic Charms activated on my magician protect my teammate's magicians as well, or does it just protect the magicians of the player that we choose?

Type:  Artifact • Brigade:  None • Ability:  None • Class:  None • Special Ability: Protect your Magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your Magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes. • Attributes:  May be activated on your Magician • Identifiers:  None • Verse:  Ezekiel 13:20 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Alright, so "your" is always a choice, and it is never the case that "your" can target cards of both me and my opponent, unless they are shared cards, like Fortresses? Am I understanding this correctly?

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 23, 2010, 12:57:35 PM

Alright, so "your" is always a choice, and it is never the case that "your" can target cards of both me and my teammate opponent, unless they are shared cards, like Fortresses? Am I understanding this correctly?

Why do I feel like I'm walking into some sort of trap

I hesitantly agree that your understanding (as corrected) is right.

I would caveat the statement to say that 'your' is a choice "each time you have a choice". So if "your" is in the special ability of an enhancement, you get to make the choice once when the sa activates and the enhancement is used up. If the "your" was in the special ability of an artifact that is active again on your teammate's turn then you have the chance to make the choice again, this time selecting your teammate. If the "your" was in a special ability as part of an ongoing check or trigger, I believe the choice can be made each time "your" is evaluated (but of course, game rules wouldn't let you change a target once you had used "your" to make a choice). So things like Chariot of Fire work on both teammate's turns because it is still active and the "your" is re-evaluated again on your teammate's turn and this time you choose to have "your" mean your teammate.

Mike

Take Gifts of the Magi, for example. You activate it on your turn and its special ability stays active till your next turn. On your turn, your opponent draws cards and GotM lets you draw cards. Then when its your opponent's turn, he draws cards again and GotM is re-evaluated, its condition is met and you get to draw cards again. How can this happen when it's your artifact but it's not your turn. The key is that the special ability is still active and it gets triggered again.

Now think of Chariot of Fire in Teams. It activates on your turn. It stays active through your opponent #1's turn, your teammate's turn, and opponent #2's turn. On your turn, the "Following your rescue attempt" is triggered and you choose "your" to mean you. On your teammate's turn, your artifact is still active and triggers because the "Following your rescue attempt" is evaluated again and since this is a "different" use, you get to pick "your" to mean your teammate this time.

Mike

But I thought the idea was to do the "your" evaluation one time...It just seems strange to me that in this case "your" means--in a pragmatic sense--both you AND your partner.

I agree with mjwolfe.  Perhaps a similar example will help you.  Imagine a regular T1-mp game when I have Unknown Nation up.  My first opponent attacks me and triggers UN.  At that point "my opponent" is the first opponent, but I choose not to use UN yet.  Then my second opponent attacks me and triggers UN again.  At that point "my opponent" is the second opponent.

There are some cards that are triggered at different points, and their targets can change.  This is the same type of thing.

OK mjb, I see what you're getting at. My understanding is that when a special ability targets a card or cards, the targeting phrase is essentially "replaced" by the actual cards targeted so that any future reference means the same exact card and therefore that targeting can never change (by game rule) for the duration of that phase. However, conditions like "Following your rescue attempt" are fully re-evaluated each time used. Chariot of Fire does not have a use limit, and can be used multiple times. So, on your turn, "Following your rescue attempt" is evaluated and you choose Player 1(yourself) after your rescue attempt. This doesn't become "Following Player 1's rescue attempt" permanently, only for that use (hence why you have to return only Player 1's heroes to Player 1's deck). And it doesn't become "Following Player 1's rescue attempt" at activation time, only when the trigger is satisfied after "your" rescue attempt. When it's your teammate's turn, the "Following your rescue attempt" triggers again and you get to select your as your teammate if you like (Player 3) since it is a different use, in a different phase from your first use. You then can return Player 3's heroes to Player 3's deck. So you are right that it's not your teammate's artifact, but YOU get to use Chariot of Fire on your turn and on your teammate's turn to achieve a similar effect (except that your teammate would still not be able to de-activate your Chariot on his turn).

Mike

Here's where I get confused.

Player 1 turns up CoF setting a trigger "following your rescue attempt." Immediately after activating CoF, which player is "your" pointing to? From the discussion above, it would seem to be both Player 1 and Player 3, correct?

Immediately after activating CoF, your is still unchosen and can be satisfied by either player 1 or player 3. It is being evaluated to see if any "Your" finishes a rescue attempt. If either player that can be a "your" finishes a rescue attempt, then the trigger fires. You don't see this in two-player or multi because there is only one player that can satisfy "you" or "your" to satisfy the trigger.

Mike