Author Topic: Several TEAMS Questions  (Read 10129 times)

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2010, 08:41:49 PM »
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As a team, you two sure aren't communicating well.
Unfortunately, the good Professor A and I can never form a team. The amount of nerdliness on one side of a battle might cause the table we were at to collapse into a black hole or something. We can't risk that.

Offline everytribe

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2010, 09:22:38 PM »
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Would "The Hobbit and the Physicist are going down this weekend" be fighting words???????
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 12:07:49 AM »
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Everyone knows that both Hobbits and Fizzycists participate solely to experience the enjoyment of a game well played.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 12:08:32 AM »
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Would "The Hobbit and the Physicist are going down this weekend" be fighting words???????

Do they go by the names of Leonard and Sheldon?   ;)
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 03:11:16 AM »
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As a team, you two sure aren't communicating well.
Unfortunately, the good Professor A and I can never form a team. The amount of nerdliness on one side of a battle might cause the table we were at to collapse into a black hole or something. We can't risk that.

Agreed. Also, you're not worthy of being my teammate.*

Everyone knows that both Hobbits and Fizzycists participate solely to experience the enjoyment of a game well played.

Well, go ahead and enjoy losing all you want. Professors and Wild/Mild men play solely to experience the enjoyment of seeing the devastated looks on their opponents' faces after humiliating them.**








*Just trying to start a fight here. This comment does not reflect the actual feelings of anyone involved.

**Actually, this one is more or less an accurate representation of how I feel...MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2010, 08:37:41 AM »
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Everyone knows that both Hobbits and Fizzycists participate solely to experience the enjoyment of a game well played.

Well, go ahead and enjoy losing all you want. Professors and Wild/Mild men play solely to experience the enjoyment of seeing the devastated looks on their opponents' faces after humiliating them.

Aaaaah. The age old argument about how best to approach a Redemption tournament rages one. These positions are best summed up in a short conversation from a philosophic masterpiece of the modern cinema:

Quote from: Conan the Barbarian
General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
General: Wrong. Conan! What is best in life?
Conan:  To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

At least we now know why Wild Bill thinks it's funny to make girls cry.

:P

Offline Bryon

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2010, 10:41:51 AM »
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When we used to play teams back in 1999 in CA, our rules were sooo much simpler.  Then again, the entire game was so much simpler.  :)

Carry on.

Oh, and Colin, I'm pretty sure you were joking about me knowing more that those guys about teams.  You are, unfortunately, incorrect.  I make it a point to know as little as possible about teams.  I absolutely LOVE to play the category, but the rules make my head hurt.  :)

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2010, 02:02:13 PM »
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If a card has an implied "your", such as "search deck for X" can I choose my teammate's deck to search for X? Or only if the card says "search your deck"?
Lightning is correct again that the special "your" rules of TEAMS only applies when it is written on the card.  No implied "your"s :)

If I play Great Faith [Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your draw pile (you may place in hand or in battle). Shuffle draw pile after exchange.] and choose my teammate's deck, can I put the card into battle, even though my teammate cannot play enhancements for me? And since it says "you may place in hand" does that "you" mean that my teammate places it in his hand, or do I? I would assume his, to be consistent with CoF.
According to the current overall game rules, players aren't allowed to put cards into opponent's decks, or to take cards from their deck unless to discard or set them aside.  Therefore, the "your" rule would be limited by the game rule, and Great Faith would be limited to only manipulating a person's own deck.

why did the "your=you or teammate" rule come into being?
The idea was to allow further interaction between teammates and to distinguish the category from T1-mp.  And despite people being worried that it would cause a lot of problems, there have been surprisingly few in the last 2.5 years.  It could be that at some future point, the rule might need to be ammended like you suggest (to only apply to your cards + the team's shared cards), but so far it seems to be working nicely.

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2010, 02:04:18 PM »
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Man I am like perfect at dictating these rules! When am I gonna be an authority?!  ::) ;)
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2010, 02:30:14 PM »
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Alright. I guess I still think it could be confusing, but I'll try my best to be a good sport and move on. Just one more question though: If a card says your hand, like the identifier on Heavy Taxes (X=# cards in your hand) can I choose which hand to count? So if I have four cards in my hand and my teammate has 8, can I choose his? And since it says "hand" I couldn't let X=12 (number in both our hands)?

Man I am like perfect at dictating these rules! When am I gonna be an authority?!  ::) ;)

Maybe when you learn a little humility.



























































 ;)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 02:34:02 PM by Professoralstad »
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2010, 03:03:56 PM »
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I can't answer you next question I'm just so dumb...  ;)

I think you could choose.
As a national champion, I support ReyZen deck pouches.

Offline sk

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2010, 04:10:35 PM »
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Since it's not an ability (assuming X is still not an ability), the card might only count cards in the hand of the person that played the enhancement.  I'm not sure if you get a choice if the card is trying to define itself independantly of your preference.

But LN's been on a streak, so it might be safe to just side with him :)
"I'm not cheating, I'm just awesome." - Luke Wolfe

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2010, 04:32:44 PM »
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If a card says your hand, like the identifier on Heavy Taxes (X=# cards in your hand) can I choose which hand to count? So if I have four cards in my hand and my teammate has 8, can I choose his? And since it says "hand" I couldn't let X=12 (number in both our hands)?
In a normal special ability "your" hand could be chosen to be either you or your teammate.  As for in an identifier, that's new ground, which I don't think has been discussed before.  I would lean toward having it work the same way for the sake of simplicity, but I'm not locked into that.  And definitely you would have to choose one hand (not add the cards in both).

Man I am like perfect at dictating these rules! When am I gonna be an authority?!  ::) ;)
I am impressed with your ability to accurately interpret the nuances of TEAM play.  Keep up the good work!  Of course Stamp MJB revoked my authority status, so I don't know how I could help you there.  Maybe if you fought him for it :)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 05:08:06 PM by Prof Underwood »

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2010, 04:59:42 PM »
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I am impressed with your ability to accurately interpret the nuances of TEAM play.  Keep up the good work!  Of course Stamp revoked my authority status, so I don't know how I could help you there.  Maybe if you fought him for it :)
I was the one who revoked your authority status--and now everyone can see why. If you can't make the distinction between STAMP and myself, why should we trust you to make more vital distinctions about the intricacies of TEAMS play?


I learned from the Minnesota Viking fans that whenever the game is going against you, you should try and blame things on the ref.  ;)

Offline STAMP

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2010, 05:10:51 PM »
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I learned from the Minnesota Viking fans that whenever the game is going against you, you should try and blame things on the ref.  ;)

I know 12 reasons why you shouldn't.   :laugh:
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Offline everytribe

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2010, 06:11:05 PM »
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At least we now know why Wild Bill thinks it's funny to make girls cry.

The only thing funner is to train RLK's at Mini Camp, trade them all the good card for commons and then watch them almost beat SirNobody in the first round of a tournament.


Carry on.

It is going down on Saturday. 8)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 09:34:35 AM by everytribe »
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Offline Michael_of_the_Star

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2010, 11:03:04 PM »
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I will be particpating in my first ever TEAMS tournament on Saturday, and I just wanted an idea of how some things work:

1. The rules say that teammates can discuss strategies openly.
a) Does that mean if a team member gets to look at an opponent's hand/cards in deck, etc. because of an SA, he can tell his teammate what's in it?
Yes, he must say it aloud so the whole table would know. The purpose of this so no one would cheat. If you are going to say something, then the whole table will hear it.
b) Can you pass your hand to your teammate so that he knows what you have without informing the opponents?
No, because this will take too long, and if you want to confirm then, just say it out loud so everyone can hear it.
c) If the answer to b) is no, are "signals" allowed between teammates (i.e. "Blue, 65; Silver, 10!" would mean "put down your Captain so I can attack next turn with the Jacob in my hand")
Yes, you can definitely do signals, what ever signal you do it need to be understandable to your teammate and yourself.

2. The words "your(s)", "opponent's"
a)  If a card says "your hand/deck/territory/discard pile, could I choose which of us gets the effect? For example, if I activate Chariot of Fire, could I get my teammate's heroes out? Could I add them to my draw pile if I want?
No, because the card you play is belonging to you, so you must do the effect to yourself,  and according to Byran Hake, only lost souls, fortress, sites, and dominants are share, so Chariot of Fire only works on yourself because is in your territory.
b) If a card says "your next turn" or something to that effect, is that my next turn, or my teammate's if he is next in line?
That would be your turn, because the "your turn" is about yourself. It doesn't say your team.
c) If a card says "do X to each opponent" do I do it to both of my opponents, or do I choose one to do X to?
Yes, because both of them are your opponent, but it said something like "your opponent's territory", then is the opponent who blocks you.

3. Character passing
a) Say my teammate and I have the same unique character in our territories. Can I put my copy of the character in a Fortress (such as Goshen/KotW) even though my teammate would then have two copies in "his" territory (as fortresses are shared)?
You cannot put a unique character into a fortress, like you say fortress is shared, so that would cost your teammate to discard his or her characters.

Any other question can always ask me, because my current specialty is on teams, so I have lot more experience in this and I have a lot of question for my playgroup leaders. Thank you.

That's all for now. I might think of more later.

Thanks. Michael Leung
ML From CA
Nice to meet you!!!!

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2010, 11:05:48 PM »
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Ah I forgot it was an identifier! My answer I believe is correct if it says special ability... although like Prof U said, I think for consistency "your" in the identifier should count the same way.
As a national champion, I support ReyZen deck pouches.

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2010, 01:11:15 AM »
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Two "discussions" came up in yesterday's team competition...

Question #1 (and I am hereby temporarily re-instating Prof Underwood's authority status to quote the following...):

According to the current overall game rules, players aren't allowed to put cards into opponent's decks, or to take cards from their deck unless to discard or set them aside.  Therefore, the "your" rule would be limited by the game rule, and Great Faith would be limited to only manipulating a person's own deck.

If we assume for this single case that Prof Underwood is correct ( ;) ) does this ruling extend to Philistine Armor Bearer? In other words can Player #1 use Philistine Armor Bearer to search Player #2 deck or discard pile for a suitable EC?

Philistine Armor Bearer  SA  You may exchange this card with an evil Philistine in your deck or discard pile. Evil Enhancements remain in battle. Cannot be negated..

Question #2: There are two teams, Team A and Team B.  Player #2 of Team B (B2) places Wall of Protections in play, which is shared with his partner, player B1. One of the members of Team A places Destructive Sin on one of player B1's heroes. Is Wall of protection negated?

Destructive Sin  SA  Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2010, 08:31:14 AM »
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I am hereby temporarily re-instating Prof Underwood's authority status
Thanks :)

can Player #1 use Philistine Armor Bearer to search Player #2 deck or discard pile for a suitable EC?
That's a good question.  I still believe there is a game rule that prevents people from manipulating other people's draw piles in most ways.  However, over the years there has been more and more encroachment in this area.  (Following list probably not in order:)

Long ago, you couldn't do anything at all to anyone else's draw pile.  Then came cards that discarded their top card, or looked at their draw pile and put it back.  Then came cards that searched through their pile to pull out Lost Souls.  Then came cards that discarded a couple top cards and then placed a previously discarded card on top.  Then recently came cards that set aside up to 9 cards from the top of their draw pile, or that searched a deck to pull out an evil character.  After all of this we now know that you can discard, search, pull out, and set aside cards from another draw pile.  And you can put cards back into another draw pile, too (shuffling in, or putting a discarded card on top).

There are two things that all these have in common, regardless of manipulation.  The first is that no one's cards except the owner of a draw pile are ever put into their draw pile.  The second is that you only mess with other's draw piles when your card specifically tells you to.  If we only look at the first commonality, then we might come to the conclusion that using your Armor Bearer to get a guy from your teammate's deck would be fine.  But if we look at the second commonality, we see that AB isn't specifically telling us to do that.  Justin's ruling in the other thread was also only dealing with searching your own draw pile with a PAB being banded from an opponent, and then putting THEIR PAB back into THEIR draw pile.  This would be reversing things to search their draw pile and put PAB back into yours.

So all that to say, that I don't think this would work.  However, I'm not 100% convinced either.

Destructive Sin on one of player B1's heroes. Is Wall of protection negated?
Yes.  Because forts are shared, a DS on either teammate's hero would negate their shared WoP.  Upon review, I guess WoP would not be negated if it were actually a card belonging to the teammate because the hero's "owner" would NOT be the WoP's "owner".  "Owner" doesn't have a different definition in TEAMS.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:07:28 AM by Prof Underwood »

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2010, 09:53:53 AM »
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Destructive Sin on one of player B1's heroes. Is Wall of protection negated?
Yes.  Because forts are shared, a DS on either teammate's hero would negate their shared WoP.
Since DS negates only the "owner's" good fortresses, you are saying is that TEAMS has a different definition of "owner"--in addition to different definitions of "you" and "yours"--than the other Redemption events. Can you quickly summarize what the definition of "owner" is for TEAMS?

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2010, 10:09:05 AM »
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you are saying is that TEAMS has a different definition of "owner"
Nope.  TEAMS does NOT have a different definition of "owner".  I apologize for the confusion.  Previous post corrected.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2010, 10:33:24 AM »
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I was thinking about this more Matt, and I think based on the wording of the card, I should have been right:

Quote
Destructive Sin
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Hero. While this card remains, negate special abilities on that Hero and its owner's good Fortresses and Covenants. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Ecclesiastes 9:18 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Note the bolded part. The word owner refers to the Hero, not the Fortress. The special ability would be equivalent to: "Negate special abilities on that Hero and the good Fortresses controlled by its owner." So since in our scenario, Nathan owned the Captain and controlled your Wall, it should have worked as I said. That was the argument I was trying to formulate in my head when I gave up trying in favor of time.

can Player #1 use Philistine Armor Bearer to search Player #2 deck or discard pile for a suitable EC?
That's a good question.  I still believe there is a game rule that prevents people from manipulating other people's draw piles in most ways.  However, over the years there has been more and more encroachment in this area.  (Following list probably not in order:)

Long ago, you couldn't do anything at all to anyone else's draw pile.  Then came cards that discarded their top card, or looked at their draw pile and put it back.  Then came cards that searched through their pile to pull out Lost Souls.  Then came cards that discarded a couple top cards and then placed a previously discarded card on top.  Then recently came cards that set aside up to 9 cards from the top of their draw pile, or that searched a deck to pull out an evil character.  After all of this we now know that you can discard, search, pull out, and set aside cards from another draw pile.  And you can put cards back into another draw pile, too (shuffling in, or putting a discarded card on top).

There are two things that all these have in common, regardless of manipulation.  The first is that no one's cards except the owner of a draw pile are ever put into their draw pile.  The second is that you only mess with other's draw piles when your card specifically tells you to.  If we only look at the first commonality, then we might come to the conclusion that using your Armor Bearer to get a guy from your teammate's deck would be fine.  But if we look at the second commonality, we see that AB isn't specifically telling us to do that.  Justin's ruling in the other thread was also only dealing with searching your own draw pile with a PAB being banded from an opponent, and then putting THEIR PAB back into THEIR draw pile.  This would be reversing things to search their draw pile and put PAB back into yours.

So all that to say, that I don't think this would work.  However, I'm not 100% convinced either.

Also, the question that came up was not quite as Matt described. Bill wanted to use my PAB which was in our shared LoB (due to the Site Guard LS in Promised Land) to search his deck for Philistine Garrison. So this would be exactly the same situation as Justin responded to, except it would be my teammate instead of my opponent, which I would think would make it even more likely to work.


FWIW, neither of those two scenarios had a huge impact on the game, and it didn't appear that there were any hard feelings on either side (except maybe the thirst for, and eventual acquisition of, revenge by the losing team following the tournament). Overall TEAMS was a lot of fun, and the category helped me forget my dismal performance in the first two rounds of T1-2P, which took me out of contention for placing before I was able to win a few games. I look forward to playing TEAMS again.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:50:11 AM by Professoralstad »
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2010, 10:44:33 AM »
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The word owner refers to the Hero, not the Fortress.
Yes, it does refer to the owner of the Hero.  And yes there is an implied "your" fortress.  But we already talked about how the "your" rule only applies when stated on the card, and not when it is merely implied.  I think that by a strict reading of the card, a teammate's WoP should still work.

Bill wanted to use my PAB which was in our shared LoB (due to the Site Guard LS in Promised Land) to search his deck for Philistine Garrison.
If he was using the PAB to search his own draw pile, then this is exactly like the ruling that Justin made previously.  In that case, it probably should have been allowed.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Several TEAMS Questions
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2010, 10:51:40 AM »
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I thought Fortresses were shared (read: contorlled by both people) regardless of the "your" rule. So even "holder's" Fortress or "his" Fortress could refer to yoru teammate's Fortress. Otherwise, how can I place/remove cards from my teammate's Storehouse/Goshen/KotW, etc. if I don't control it?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 10:56:31 AM by Professoralstad »
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