Author Topic: Several TEAMS Questions (Read 10270 times)

Professoralstad · « **on:** February 03, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »

I will be particpating in my first ever TEAMS tournament on Saturday, and I just wanted an idea of how some things work:

1. The rules say that teammates can discuss strategies openly.
a) Does that mean if a team member gets to look at an opponent's hand/cards in deck, etc. because of an SA, he can tell his teammate what's in it?
b) Can you pass your hand to your teammate so that he knows what you have without informing the opponents?
c) If the answer to b) is no, are "signals" allowed between teammates (i.e. "Blue, 65; Silver, 10!" would mean "put down your Captain so I can attack next turn with the Jacob in my hand")

2. The words "your(s)", "opponent's"
a) If a card says "your hand/deck/territory/discard pile, could I choose which of us gets the effect? For example, if I activate Chariot of Fire, could I get my teammate's heroes out? Could I add them to my draw pile if I want?
b) If a card says "your next turn" or something to that effect, is that my next turn, or my teammate's if he is next in line?
c) If a card says "do X to each opponent" do I do it to both of my opponents, or do I choose one to do X to?

3. Character passing
a) Say my teammate and I have the same unique character in our territories. Can I put my copy of the character in a Fortress (such as Goshen/KotW) even though my teammate would then have two copies in "his" territory (as fortresses are shared)?

That's all for now. I might think of more later.

lightningninja · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:20:17 PM »

1. The rules say that teammates can discuss strategies openly.
a) Does that mean if a team member gets to look at an opponent's hand/cards in deck, etc. because of an SA, he can tell his teammate what's in it?
Yes, but he must say it out loud.
b) Can you pass your hand to your teammate so that he knows what you have without informing the opponents?
Nope, but you can read every card in your hand out loud.
c) If the answer to b) is no, are "signals" allowed between teammates (i.e. "Blue, 65; Silver, 10!" would mean "put down your Captain so I can attack next turn with the Jacob in my hand")
I don't think there is anything against this, and there were code words being used by Red Dragon Thorn at nationals and that was allowed.

2. The words "your(s)", "opponent's"
a) If a card says "your hand/deck/territory/discard pile, could I choose which of us gets the effect? For example, if I activate Chariot of Fire, could I get my teammate's heroes out? Could I add them to my draw pile if I want?
Yes... but you must choose one, not both.
b) If a card says "your next turn" or something to that effect, is that my next turn, or my teammate's if he is next in line?
I'm not sure about this but I believe, once again, you could choose.
c) If a card says "do X to each opponent" do I do it to both of my opponents, or do I choose one to do X to?
If it says "each opponent," then yea I think you can do it to both of your opponents. Did I misunderstand this question?

3. Character passing
a) Say my teammate and I have the same unique character in our territories. Can I put my copy of the character in a Fortress (such as Goshen/KotW) even though my teammate would then have two copies in "his" territory (as fortresses are shared)?
Hm... I don't think so for the reason you mentioned... I"m not sure about this one though.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:26:21 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on February 03, 2010, 11:20:17 PM

c) If a card says "do X to each opponent" do I do it to both of my opponents, or do I choose one to do X to?
If it says "each opponent," then yea I think you can do it to both of your opponents. Did I misunderstand this question?

Basically what I'm saying is, if I play a card that says: "discard a card from each opponent's hand". Is the opposing TEAM my opponent (since a card that says opponent can be applied to either player) or is each player on that TEAM an opponent? I would assume that "each opponent"="each player on opposing TEAM" but I wanted to make sure.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:26:52 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 03, 2010, 11:13:25 PM

1. The rules say that teammates can discuss strategies openly.
a) Does that mean if a team member gets to look at an opponent's hand/cards in deck, etc. because of an SA, he can tell his teammate what's in it?
b) Can you pass your hand to your teammate so that he knows what you have without informing the opponents?
c) If the answer to b) is no, are "signals" allowed between teammates (i.e. "Blue, 65; Silver, 10!" would mean "put down your Captain so I can attack next turn with the Jacob in my hand")

I would like an official ruling on the extent to which table talk is allowed. To my way of seeing ~~Prof Underwood and Wolfe pere~~ no one would be authorities in addition to the normal crew.

Quote

2. The words "your(s)", "opponent's"
a) If a card says "your hand/deck/territory/discard pile, could I choose which of us gets the effect? For example, if I activate Chariot of Fire, could I get my teammate's heroes out?

Yes. You can choose either your discard pile or your partner's discard pile to riffle through.

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Could I add them to my draw pile if I want?

No. Owners remain owners.

Quote

b) If a card says "your next turn" or something to that effect, is that my next turn, or my teammate's if he is next in line?

The next turn of the first teammate in order. Even if this is bad for you.

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c) If a card says "do X to each opponent" do I do it to both of my opponents, or do I choose one to do X to?

Both. If the card says "do X to your opponent" you get to pick which opponent to do X to.

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3. Character passing
a) Say my teammate and I have the same unique character in our territories. Can I put my copy of the character in a Fortress (such as Goshen/KotW) even though my teammate would then have two copies in "his" territory (as fortresses are shared)?

No. Unique character rules are still in effect.

Instaposted by ln.

lightningninja · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:30:04 PM »

Woops, didn't see the second part of the Chariot of Fire question. Yes, you can choose your teammate, but he would shuffle them into his deck.

Prof, are you sure about the "your next turn" question? I figured you could choose... it seems to make sense and fits the "your" is you or your teammate rule.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:31:52 PM »

Code talking is not only allowed, it's the best part!

Jeremy and I had a ton of fun confusing our opponents at Natz. making up things on the fly was great too.

"I've got a big bear"
"What?"
"The bike rider is in the house"
"Oh!"

(King of Tyrus)

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:34:08 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on February 03, 2010, 11:30:04 PM

Prof, are you sure about the "your next turn" question? I figured you could choose... it seems to make sense and fits the "your" is you or your teammate rule.

I'm not sure. I figure if I'm wrong someone will correct me. The I can argue with the person for a dozen pages or so and make this an epic thread.

Your answer sounds pretty good to me, so I'm probably wrong. Want to fight about it?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:35:08 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on February 03, 2010, 11:30:04 PM

Prof, are you sure about the "your next turn" question? I figured you could choose... it seems to make sense and fits the "your" is you or your teammate rule.

No I'm not sure, which is why I asked.

lightningninja · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:36:27 PM »

Wow EmJayBee... you didn't even correct the fact that (I just realized) you are NOT prof...

.

EDIT: but prof did.

Also, your post made me seriously laugh out loud. And sure, why not? And I put $5 on my position.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2010, 12:08:59 AM »

Good questions.

Everyone's answers to questions 1 and 3 are correct.
Everyone's answers to questions 2a and 2c are also correct.

That just leaves 2b which is the one that people are disagreeing on.
2b or not 2b, that is the question. Whether tis nobler.....

Anyway, I agree with LN on this one. "Yours" means owned and controlled by you or your teammate, and is chosen at the time that the ability happens. So you could choose your teammate's next turn, or your next turn, but then you can't change your mind later depending on what happens.

mjwolfe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2010, 12:12:18 AM »

As it turns out, the code languages everyone comes up with to communicate with their teammate is one of the funnest parts of teams.

2A - You can choose which ONE of you gets the effect, but it must be a single choice for all abilities on the card. You can't choose the "your" in "your rescue attempt" to be you, but then choose the "your" in "your heroes" to be your teammate's. For Chariot of Fire, after your rescue attempt you can't get your teammates heroes out, but during your teammate's turn, Chariot is still active and now applies to him because of the "your" rule, but he can only get heroes out of his discard pile.
2B - You can choose which ONE of you gets to be "your" in your next turn, but you have to decide when its played and it can still only be used once.
2C - Any time the word "opponent", "opponent's", or "opponents'" is used it means ONE of the players on the other team and you get to choose who it is. It never means both players on the other team. An analogy that helps understand these issues is that teams is like 2-player where the other "player" is the other team. I suppose if we ever came up with a multi-teams event, then do "X" to each opponent would allow you to do "X" to one member of each opposing team. But since there's only one opposing team in the current teams event, you can only do "X" to ONE of the opposing teammates.

Mike

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2010, 12:16:43 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 04, 2010, 12:08:59 AM

Anyway, I agree with LN on this one. "Yours" means owned and controlled by you or your teammate, and is chosen at the time that the ability happens. So you could choose your teammate's next turn, or your next turn, but then you can't change your mind later depending on what happens.

Quote from: mjwolfe on February 04, 2010, 12:12:18 AM

2B - You can choose which ONE of you gets to be "your" in your next turn, but you have to decide when its played and it can still only be used once.

What do you guys know about TEAMS? I modified my original post--you no longer count as authorities. Only Shride, Berkenpas, The Schaef, SirNobody, Bryon, and Rob will do.

Wanna fight?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2010, 01:26:14 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 04, 2010, 12:16:43 AM

Wanna fight?

Nah, but I'm disappointed you didn't run with my Hamlet quote

STAMP · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2010, 11:17:27 AM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on August 10, 2008, 01:30:33 PM

This thread is provocative.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2010, 11:56:37 AM »

Here's another few regarding "your":

If a card has an implied "your", such as "search deck for X" can I choose my teammate's deck to search for X? Or only if the card says "search your deck"?

If I play Great Faith [Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your draw pile (you may place in hand or in battle). Shuffle draw pile after exchange.] and choose my teammate's deck, can I put the card into battle, even though my teammate cannot play enhancements for me? And since it says "you may place in hand" does that "you" mean that my teammate places it in his hand, or do I? I would assume his, to be consistent with CoF.

I know I am inexperienced in team play, but I have to ask: why did the "your=you or teammate" rule come into being? It seems to cause a lot of confusing situations (like the ones I've presented). I would say that "your" should refer to anything that you personally own and control, and anything that is shared (your sites, fortresses+contents, LoR, LoB= you or your teammate's sites, fortresses, LoR, LoB). But anything else, my teammate's deck, discard pile, heroes or EC's in territory, could not be targeted by a card that says "your".

I guess I shouldn't complain (and I'm not really, I just like the reasons behind rulings) until I try it, I'm just looking for a reason why we should add that kind of complexity. What are the ultimate benefits of it?

Also a small part of me is trying to get MJB's fight started...so, Prof U, go ahead and "take arms against MY sea of troubles". What now?

redemptioncousin · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2010, 12:17:25 PM »

I agree with Prof... when we decided to embark upon this teams venture back in (2004??? whatever the nats in NY was...) it was meant to simply be Redemption with partners, holding to as many rules as possible.

This whole you/your thing complexifies a game that should be extremely simple (at least compared to 2P Redemption as it is). Why can't you simply be you and your partner be your partner...

If real rules ever get set for this category, this could quite possibly be the best category Redemption has to offer. Making it work differently only encourages massive "combo decks" and creates unnecessary arguments about how otherwise simple cards work. I feel like we have enough arguments just in the basic game... why add more???

lightningninja · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2010, 01:31:08 PM »

If a card has an implied "your", such as "search deck for X" can I choose my teammate's deck to search for X? Or only if the card says "search your deck"?
I don't think an implied "your" counts... I also don't think you can take a card out of your teammates draw pile, even if it does say "your..." there must be a rule on this.

If I play Great Faith [Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your draw pile (you may place in hand or in battle). Shuffle draw pile after exchange.] and choose my teammate's deck, can I put the card into battle, even though my teammate cannot play enhancements for me? And since it says "you may place in hand" does that "you" mean that my teammate places it in his hand, or do I? I would assume his, to be consistent with CoF.
Once again I think there MUST be a rule that says you can't take cards from your teammate's draw pile... or I can see this starting to get broken.

I know I am inexperienced in team play, but I have to ask: why did the "your=you or teammate" rule come into being? It seems to cause a lot of confusing situations (like the ones I've presented). I would say that "your" should refer to anything that you personally own and control, and anything that is shared (your sites, fortresses+contents, LoR, LoB= you or your teammate's sites, fortresses, LoR, LoB). But anything else, my teammate's deck, discard pile, heroes or EC's in territory, could not be targeted by a card that says "your".
This is an excellent question. But I don't have the answer to this one, unfortunately.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2010, 01:41:52 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on February 04, 2010, 01:31:08 PM

If a card has an implied "your", such as "search deck for X" can I choose my teammate's deck to search for X? Or only if the card says "search your deck"?
I don't think an implied "your" counts... I also don't think you can take a card out of your teammates draw pile, even if it does say "your..." there must be a rule on this.

Well if my CoF can get my teammate's heroes out, then why wouldn't my card be able to get a card from my teammate's draw pile? Even if I have to place it in my teammate's hand?

Quote

I know I am inexperienced in team play, but I have to ask: why did the "your=you or teammate" rule come into being? It seems to cause a lot of confusing situations (like the ones I've presented). I would say that "your" should refer to anything that you personally own and control, and anything that is shared (your sites, fortresses+contents, LoR, LoB= you or your teammate's sites, fortresses, LoR, LoB). But anything else, my teammate's deck, discard pile, heroes or EC's in territory, could not be targeted by a card that says "your".
This is an excellent question. But I don't have the answer to this one, unfortunately.

I'm hoping someone does. I'm not looking for anything to be changed yet, just explained (and maybe changed at a later point if there is no real explanation). But coming from a point of view where simpler rules are better rules, I think it is certainly something worthy of consideration.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2010, 02:02:52 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 04, 2010, 11:56:37 AM

If a card has an implied "your", such as "search deck for X" can I choose my teammate's deck to search for X? Or only if the card says "search your deck"?

Don't be silly, Rabbit. We have enough problems as it is with things that are actually written on cards to start messing around with things that aren;t written. Even guys itching for a fight--such as myself--shy away from the amount of havoc that would be wreaked upon the boards by an "implied" anything rule.

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If I play Great Faith [Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your draw pile (you may place in hand or in battle). Shuffle draw pile after exchange.] and choose my teammate's deck, can I put the card into battle, even though my teammate cannot play enhancements for me?

I don't think you should be allowed to add cards to your partners deck by any means fair or foul. In a practical sense you and your partner would have to have identical sleeves so that it isn't obvious which card is yours during play. And if it isn't obvious which card is yours during play, how can your opponents be assured both team members have legal decks at the start of the next round?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2010, 02:20:26 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 04, 2010, 02:02:52 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 04, 2010, 11:56:37 AM
If a card has an implied "your", such as "search deck for X" can I choose my teammate's deck to search for X? Or only if the card says "search your deck"?
Don't be silly, Rabbit. We have enough problems as it is with things that are actually written on cards to start messing around with things that aren;t written. Even guys itching for a fight--such as myself--shy away from the amount of havoc that would be wreaked upon the boards by an "implied" anything rule.

I'm not arguing that there should be an implied "your", as there definitely is. The "your" has to be implied in order to prevent me from searching any deck, or searching the land of deck (which is what the grammar would say without an implied "your"). It's interesting that a word that was excluded merely for the saving of a bit of space on a card could make such a difference.

Quote

Quote
If I play Great Faith [Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your draw pile (you may place in hand or in battle). Shuffle draw pile after exchange.] and choose my teammate's deck, can I put the card into battle, even though my teammate cannot play enhancements for me?
I don't think you should be allowed to add cards to your partners deck by any means fair or foul. In a practical sense you and your partner would have to have identical sleeves so that it isn't obvious which card is yours during play. And if it isn't obvious which card is yours during play, how can your opponents be assured both team members have legal decks at the start of the next round?

I'm not saying that. Cards by default go to the owner's draw piles, so that I could get an enhancement from my teammate's deck, and put GF back into mine. This was discussed in a thread where my opponent wanted to use my Philly Armorbearer to search for his TFG. It was ruled he could (at least by Justin, who I'm guessing had it right since there where no dissenting opinions), but that PAB would still go to my deck/discard pile. I don't see how this would be different.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2010, 03:05:40 PM »

I'll give a shot at answering the question about "your". I think the idea was that you can target you and your teammates characters so that you could work as a team and protect each others characters or give them a boost with Elijah's Mantle, etc. It has gotten a bit confusing when looking at how that applies to other things though.

I think this can be worked out but I agree that it isn't yet and needs to be.

I think that "each opponent" should let you target both opponent's on the opposing team.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2010, 03:25:53 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on February 04, 2010, 03:05:40 PM

I'll give a shot at answering the question about "your". I think the idea was that you can target you and your teammates characters so that you could work as a team and protect each others characters or give them a boost with Elijah's Mantle, etc. It has gotten a bit confusing when looking at how that applies to other things though.

I kind of assumed that's the type of thing it was intended for, however, I'd bet that a cost/benefit analysis would reveal that the costs (complicated situations involving cards like the ones mentioned) outweigh the benefits.

So here's my proposed definition, which still allows for a TEAM to have quite a bit of interaction without as many complicated scenarios:

When a card you control says "your" it refers to all of the cards you own and control, and all of the locations and cards that you and your teammate share (Fortresses + contents, LoB, and LoR).

I don't expect this change to occur in the next two days, but I think that maybe it could be a positive eventual step to making TEAMS a better category.

All that said, I am very much looking forward to participating in the tournament on Saturday. It should be great fun!

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2010, 03:49:48 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 04, 2010, 03:25:53 PM

So here's my proposed definition, which still allows for a TEAM to have quite a bit of interaction without as many complicated scenarios:

When a card you control says "your" it refers to all of the cards you own and control, and all of the locations and cards that you and your teammate share (Fortresses + contents, LoB, and LoR).

You are off to a fine start here in the brawl-inducing sentiment department. Now all you need to do is close it out with some fighting words like...

And if you don't agree with me you can go soak your head.

Quote

I don't expect this change to occur in the next two days, but I think that maybe it could be a positive eventual step to making TEAMS a better category.

All that said, I am very much looking forward to participating in the tournament on Saturday. It should be great fun!

Ooooooooo. So close.

TimMierz · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2010, 04:20:33 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 04, 2010, 03:49:48 PM

And if you don't agree with me you can go soak your head.

"Aw, go soak your fat head."
"Are you asking for a challenge?!"
"Yessir. Yessir I am."[/spam]

STAMP · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2010, 04:27:18 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 04, 2010, 03:49:48 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 04, 2010, 03:25:53 PM
So here's my proposed definition, which still allows for a TEAM to have quite a bit of interaction without as many complicated scenarios:

When a card you control says "your" it refers to all of the cards you own and control, and all of the locations and cards that you and your teammate share (Fortresses + contents, LoB, and LoR).
You are off to a fine start here in the brawl-inducing sentiment department. Now all you need to do is close it out with some fighting words like...

And if you don't agree with me you can go soak your head.

Quote
I don't expect this change to occur in the next two days, but I think that maybe it could be a positive eventual step to making TEAMS a better category.

All that said, I am very much looking forward to participating in the tournament on Saturday. It should be great fun!
Ooooooooo. So close.

As a team, you two sure aren't communicating well. Maybe take a few moments to review your table talk code.

News:

Author Topic: Several TEAMS Questions (Read 10270 times)