Cactus Game Design Message Boards

How does Momentum Change work?

"Return all Evil Enhancements except this one to holder's hand if Evil Character loses in battle."

Suppose I band Lot's Wife to Proud Pharisee. I play a black enhancement, a gray enhancement, and Momentum Change. They play AotL on PP. Do my enhancements immediately return to my hand since the evil character was discarded (thus losing the battle)? Would both the black and gray enhancement return?

Suppose I then play Wrath of Satan and win the battle. Do the enhancements still return to my hand because Proud Pharisee lost the battle? Would Wrath return to my hand as well?

Suppose my opponent starts a sidebattle with Sword of the Lord. Do I get all the evil enhancements he plays in the side battle as well as my own?

Suppose I block with somebody with horses and I play Momentum Change. They play Loyalty of Ruth (or whichever new card makes me withdraw). Do the horses go into my hand?
Suppose the above but I'm at handlimit does horses go to discard or stay down?

is this still current?

57 views and no answers

I asked a similar questions on the elders board a few months ago and have not gotten a conclusion. 

I currently have a couple versions of Momentum Change decks that break the game. They are not truly viable, however, as the only way to make it work is if your opponent attacks you. So you can't go off if you are not attacked after you are set up. And ignore and CtB abilities limit your abilities to block. With that in mind, I will answer your questions based on my understanding of current rules, definitions, and past ruling precedence based on research and testing another player and I worked on together.

Suppose I band Lot's Wife to Proud Pharisee. I play a black enhancement, a gray enhancement, and Momentum Change. They play AotL on PP. Do my enhancements immediately return to my hand since the evil character was discarded (thus losing the battle)? Would both the black and gray enhancement return?

No - Losing the battle only happens when you have no characters left on your side of the battle. 

Suppose I then play Wrath of Satan and win the battle. Do the enhancements still return to my hand because Proud Pharisee lost the battle? Would Wrath return to my hand as well?

No based on same answer as before.

Suppose my opponent starts a sidebattle with Sword of the Lord. Do I get all the evil enhancements he plays in the side battle as well as my own?

No - the ability only applies to current battle.

Suppose I block with somebody with horses and I play Momentum Change. They play Loyalty of Ruth (or whichever new card makes me withdraw). Do the horses go into my hand?
Suppose the above but I'm at handlimit does horses go to discard or stay down?

Yes the horses go to hand. For the second I am not sure but I believe it would stay as a weapon in territory.

is this still current?

Yes - it doesn't work with Escape because it interrupts MC

Bottom line - use Just a Hireling or Syrian Victory to remove your only EC and add an EC placed on a multi-color site via Fortify Site (gray) to battle after your enhancements return to hand. Place another EC on the site and you can have infinite battles, provided you band in Scribe to return MC to deck after you use up your copies of MC and then use Retreat to keep Scribe alive, then kill your remaining character to keep the chain going. You need at least 2 copies of MC in deck to make it work. Also, there are a couple ways to manipulate your ECs so you have infinite generic blockers. Really complex but fun if you can pull it off.

Hard in t2 because your opponent has to attack the multi-color site. Easier in t1 but good luck drawing everything before you lose. If you play the version with every color site it is hard to make sure they attack with a certain color while thay color site is still in your deck to add via Land Purchase. I have a deck list if anyone would like to play with it. I stopped playing it because I don't think it is viable.

Kirk

At first I was inclined to say "yes", but after reading the card carefully, I would have to say "no" based solely on the word "Return".  Since the evil enhancements on your opponents side of battle did not originate from your hand, they cannot "return" to your hand, so I think MC only applies to your side of battle.

That is my thinking as well. "Return" is not defined in the REG so I assume we are left to use English definitions to answer this. Return means to go back from where something or someone came from. Your opponent's evil enhancements would not return to your hand since they came from your opponent.

Kirk

Hey,

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on September 12, 2010, 01:13:38 AM

What is the redemption definition for 'return'?

The new REG defines it as follows:  "A return ability puts a card in a location and/or state that the card (usually) had been in at some earlier point in the game."

Quote

It seems like to me that to be returned you must have been there in the first place, so if a soul hasn't already been in your LOB....

The new REG also says the following regarding return: "A card can be returned to a location even if it has never been in that location before. Return abilities generally send cards to a place they came from, but they do not have to."

Pushed Back can return a hero that entered battle from hand to it's owner's territory.  Falling Away can return a lost soul to a land of bondage it's never been in before.

In redemption we use the "regress" definition of "return" rather than the "revert" definition.  There is a normal progression a card goes through in the course of a game of Redemption.  Return is an ability that moves a card backwards in that progression.

 . I'm not sure whether or not this is actually in the REG - I haven't known where the REG is since it got moved from redemptionreg.org

Disregard Tim's quote from 2010. It was not accurate and was changed shortly after it slipped into the REG.

Speaking of Momentum Change can you recur MC with another copy of MC?

Speaking of Momentum Change can you recur MC with another copy of MC?

No - I don't have a link to the thread but it has been ruled on before.

Arrogance is in the same boat as Momentum Change - many people don't play it because it may be ruled against them in tournaments since it is fuzzy how everything works.

Kirk