Author Topic: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation  (Read 4353 times)

Offline Master KChief

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Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« on: January 11, 2010, 02:58:18 PM »
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i block a rescue attempt with seven wicked spirits and exchange it with an evil character in my opponents territory. my opponent then makes the battles by the numbers (we'll just say by banding in the strong angel). are the evil characters 'unexchanged'?

Seven Wicked Spirits
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 7 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may interrupt all Fortresses and exchange this Evil Character with any other Evil Character in play or set-aside area. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Luke 11:26 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 8 )

The Strong Angel
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: All special abilities on character cards and enhancement cards except this one are interrupted and prevented. Battle is determined by the numbers. • Identifiers: NT Male Angel • Verse: Revelation 5:2 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Offline Gabe

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 03:03:02 PM »
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Yes, the BTN ability targets all cards in play.  The territory is in play so SWS is negated.  If you had exchanged SWS with a character in a set-aside area the exchange would not be negated because SWS would be out of play.
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 04:29:45 PM »
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What if he was exchanged into KOTW?
Not quite a ghost...but not quite not.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 05:01:18 PM »
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Hey,

What if he was exchanged into KOTW?

Kingdoms has a protect ability.  You can't protect from being negated.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 06:49:04 PM »
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Quote
You can't protect from being negated.
Why can't I negate AoCP then?
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 06:57:08 PM »
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Hey,

Quote
You can't protect from being negated.
Why can't I negate AoCP then?

Because AoCP doesn't have a protect ability.  It has a cannot be negated ability.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2010, 08:00:28 PM »
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The phrase, "cannot be" is a protect.  Lydia is protected from capture because of her ability which says, "cannot be captured."  AoCP cannot be negated because it protects from negation.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2010, 08:06:43 PM »
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I dont think that argument will hold much ground.

CBP, CBI, and CBN are specifically designed protections that stop prevents, interrupts, and negates. No other protection ability stops negates.

Also, I thought FBTN only targeted people in battle.

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2010, 08:09:43 PM »
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CBP, CBI, and CBN are specifically designed protections that stop prevents, interrupts, and negates. No other protection ability stops negates.

That's not any different than what I am saying...
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2010, 08:11:11 PM »
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Your previous posts made me think you were trying to negate AoCP, because negates "go through protection", and CBN is a type of protection. What were you trying to say then?

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 08:12:30 PM »
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Quote
What were you trying to say then?
You can protect from being negated.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2010, 08:14:51 PM »
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Ooooh. Well, what Maly was only refering to KotW being unable to protect from negates.

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2010, 08:17:48 PM »
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Yes, I know.  I only said something because I was bored at the time.  However, the fact remains that it is possible to protect from negation.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2010, 08:29:45 PM »
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Ah, sorry for the confusion.  :D

browarod

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 08:30:38 PM »
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The phrase, "cannot be" is a protect.  Lydia is protected from capture because of her ability which says, "cannot be captured."  AoCP cannot be negated because it protects from negation.
Are you sure about that? Lydia's ability says "Lydia is protected from capture." It seems like CBI/P/N are not protects like other protects. Maybe because interrupt, prevent, and negate affect special abilities whereas capture, convert, discard, etc. affect cards? I don't know. "Cannot be interrupted" seems more like a status than a protect, imho.

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 08:38:52 PM »
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http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/lydia.htm

The original Lydia says, "cannot be taken prisoner."  

In addition the REG states that "cannot be" is a protect phrase. This can be found by going to: Ongoing abilities > Protect > Clarifications.

When you click on the link that is "cannot be" on that REG page you get the following:
Quote
Cannot be

This is a protect ability. Cannot be taken prisoner, discarded, removed from the game, captured, or converted limits or protects the potential targets of the ability, just as ignore or immune or protect limits or protects the poten­tial targets of the ability.  For example, Elizabeth Elisabeths special abil­ity, “cannot be taken prisoner,” could be understood as “immune to capture.” “Cannot be” does not “prevent” or “negate” any­thing. It only limits the potential targets of a special ability.  An Evil Character blocking Elizabeth Elisabeth could still use Net to capture a Hero other than Elizabeth Elisabeth. Note: If the special ability of a card includes the words “cannot” or “may not” WITHOUT the word “be”, then this is a type of prevent. For instance, if a card states that Heroes may not band, this is not a protect, but a prevent because of the lack of the word” be”. Heroes would be PREVENTED from banding.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:41:42 PM by Sean »
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Daniel 4:1b

browarod

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 08:44:30 PM »
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In regards to Lydia, using older cards (that have a newer version(s) printed) as evidence on a wording argument isn't the smartest thing to be doing :P

In regards to the other thing,............... you've got me there....

Though, in regards to this part:

When you click on the link that is "cannot be" on that REG page you get the following:
Quote
Cannot be

This is a protect ability. Cannot be taken prisoner, discarded, removed from the game, captured, or converted limits or protects the potential targets of the ability, just as ignore or immune or protect limits or protects the poten­tial targets of the ability.  For example, Elizabeth Elisabeths special abil­ity, “cannot be taken prisoner,” could be understood as “immune to capture.” “Cannot be” does not “prevent” or “negate” any­thing. It only limits the potential targets of a special ability.  An Evil Character blocking Elizabeth Elisabeth could still use Net to capture a Hero other than Elizabeth Elisabeth. Note: If the special ability of a card includes the words “cannot” or “may not” WITHOUT the word “be”, then this is a type of prevent. For instance, if a card states that Heroes may not band, this is not a protect, but a prevent because of the lack of the word” be”. Heroes would be PREVENTED from banding.
It only refers to card-affecting abilities (capture, discard, band, etc.), not ability-affecting abilities (interrupt, prevent, and negate).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:46:41 PM by browarod »

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 08:47:39 PM »
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Quote
In regards to Lydia, using older cards (that have a newer version(s) printed) as evidence on a wording argument isn't the smartest thing to be doing
The fact that the special ability was updated to reflect that it is a protect ability only adds to my argument.

Quote
It only refers to card-affecting abilities (capture, discard, band, etc.), not ability-affecting abilities (interrupt, prevent, and negate).
Sign of the Rainbow doesn't affect the last Evil Enhancement?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:50:03 PM by Sean »
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

browarod

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 08:53:06 PM »
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Quote
In regards to Lydia, using older cards (that have a newer version(s) printed) as evidence on a wording argument isn't the smartest thing to be doing
The fact that the special ability was updated to reflect that it is a protect ability only adds to my argument.
I don't see how. Sure, "cannot be" is a protect ability, but that doesn't necessarily mean "CBI/P/N" are. Exceptions exist and could (conceivably) be used in this case. Weak, I know, but it's all I can think of :'(

Quote
Quote
It only refers to card-affecting abilities (capture, discard, band, etc.), not ability-affecting abilities (interrupt, prevent, and negate).
Sign of the Rainbow doesn't affect the last Evil Enhancement?
SotR has 2 effects: negate and discard. The negate affects the last evil enhancement's abilities, and the discard affects the card itself.

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 08:58:21 PM »
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Quote
that doesn't necessarily mean "CBI/P/N" are.
Actually, it does.  The quote above clearly states when referring to cannot be, "This is a protect ability."  It doesn't matter what you fill in after the "cannot be."  Whatever you finish the sentence with is what is being protected from.  Whether it be capture or negation, it is protecting from something.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2010, 09:02:26 PM »
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what difference does it make if cbn/i/p is a protect or not?
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Offline Sean

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2010, 09:03:27 PM »
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what difference does it make if cbn/i/p is a protect or not?
My life depends on it.
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Daniel 4:1b

browarod

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 09:04:43 PM »
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Quote
that doesn't necessarily mean "CBI/P/N" are.
Actually, it does.  The quote above clearly states when referring to cannot be, "This is a protect ability."  It doesn't matter what you fill in after the "cannot be."  Whatever you finish the sentence with is what is being protected from.  Whether it be capture or negation, it is protecting from something.
Except that the paragraph when you click on "cannot be", as I said earlier, only gives examples of "taken prisoner, discarded, removed from the game, captured, or converted...ignore or immune". It says nothing about interrupt, negate, or prevent (except at the end when it says "cannot" by itself is a prevent and not a protect, but I would argue that's a different kind of prevent).

Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 09:07:59 PM »
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Sean, this quote from the new REG should answer your questions:


Quote from: new REG
The phrases “cannot be” and “may not be” and “prevented from being” mean the same as “protected from.”  (Note: “may not be” indicates a protect ability when it appears as its own phrase but not when it appears as part of a longer phrase such as “may not be blocked by.” “Cannot be negated,” “cannot be prevented,” and “cannot be interrupted” are similar to protect abilities but are not protect abilities. They each have their own special ability type defined elsewhere in this document.)

browarod

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Re: Seven Wicked Spirits vs Negation
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 09:09:38 PM »
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Ooh, I was totally right but not searching the correct document for evidence (I was using the current REG) :P

*breathes a sigh of relief*
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:11:57 PM by browarod »

 


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