Author Topic: Searching and Where Cards End Up (Read 2077 times)

Gabe · « **on:** April 26, 2011, 11:29:24 AM »

I've noticed on some threads that a portion of the Redemption community has drawn the following conclusion:
if you use a search ability that would add a card to the field of play, and that card cannot be added to the field of play (it's ignored or causes duplicates, etc) then the searched card is added to the hand instead.

I've read through the search entry of the REG (and the new REG in progress) and I don't find anything that indicates this is correct. Please help me understand where this idea came from.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #1 on:** April 26, 2011, 11:31:51 AM »

I believe it has to do with the idea that searches default to hand unless specified, so, if a search location (exlcuding a search to hand) is unavailable, people feel as if the next place it would go is the hand.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #2 on:** April 26, 2011, 11:32:25 AM »

Sometimes, it's two separate abilities. You search for it (completing the first part of the ability), and if you can't add it to battle then you can't complete the second part of the ability.

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** April 26, 2011, 11:38:57 AM »

It's true that the default for search abilities is to put the card in hand. The default is there for cards that don't specify a location. But if the card specifies a location (and that location is not optional) then you must put it in that location. If you cannot, I believe you leave it where it was.

SirNobody · « **Reply #4 on:** April 26, 2011, 01:10:42 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Gabe on April 26, 2011, 11:29:24 AM

I've noticed on some threads that a portion of the Redemption community has drawn the following conclusion:
if you use a search ability that would add a card to the field of play, and that card cannot be added to the field of play (it's ignored or causes duplicates, etc) then the searched card is added to the hand instead.

While I can't put a finger on where exactly that idea came from, I can go so far as to say that it is an incorrect conclusion.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #5 on:** April 26, 2011, 11:44:09 PM »

I think the confusion results from the fact that the vast majority of search abilities are two abilities (such as search for X and add to battle). The few that aren't get mistakenly painted with the same brush.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** April 27, 2011, 04:38:13 PM »

OK, so I can see where problems will occur with not making the abilities connected:

Disbelieving Sadducees (Di)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 6 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search a discard pile for X Heroes and remove them from game. Protect Lost Souls from rescue unless a human Hero is in battle. Cannot be prevented.

I certainly don't want my heroes going into my opponent's hand.

However, what happens if my opponent uses Escape to Egypt and I cannot (or am protected) withdraw my heroes from battle, or remove a dominant from my hand?

Escape to Egypt (Di)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Opponent must withdraw 2 Heroes from battle and place a good Dominant from hand beneath deck. Cannot be prevented if used by a Herod. •

I've always thought that the default in these circumstances was "do as much as you can."

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** April 27, 2011, 04:56:08 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 27, 2011, 04:23:19 PM

Quote from: Gabe on April 26, 2011, 11:38:57 AM
It's true that the default for search abilities is to put the card in hand. The default is there for cards that don't specify a location. But if the card specifies a location (and that location is not optional) then you must put it in that location. If you cannot, I believe you leave it where it was.

I don't understand why the first part of an "and" ability fizzles just because the second part could not take place. Wouldn't that make "and" abilities conditional?

What makes you think the first part "fizzles"? You still search, but if you cannot move the card to the required location then you leave it where it was.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 27, 2011, 04:38:13 PM

However, what happens if my opponent uses Escape to Egypt and I cannot (or am protected) withdraw my heroes from battle, or remove a dominant from my hand?

Escape to Egypt (Di)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Opponent must withdraw 2 Heroes from battle and place a good Dominant from hand beneath deck. Cannot be prevented if used by a Herod. •

I've always thought that the default in these circumstances was "do as much as you can."

You're correct that you do as much as you can. Are your Heroes protect from withdraw abilities? Then you can't withdraw them but you can place the good Dom beneath deck. Or, is your hand protected from your opponent? Then the Heroes still withdraw but your good Dom stays in hand.

I'm not making the connection between this and a search ability.

browarod · « **Reply #8 on:** April 27, 2011, 05:02:37 PM »

I think he was using it as an example of "and" meaning unconnected abilities.

What I think is the case here is that "and" on a search is clarifying where you put the searched card after you search for it (search AND band/put in play/put in territory), not necessarily another ability (draw AND play).

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** April 27, 2011, 06:18:56 PM »

What I am saying is that "Search deck for a card and add it to battle" is really:

1. Search deck for a card.
2. Add it to battle.

There is no "may" so both abilities must be completed (if they can).

"And" used between two defined abilities has always been treated as two separate abilities where you do as much as you can.

Bryon · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2011, 06:29:03 PM »

Is the problem that we include a Search ability where one isn't needed?

Could this card:
Search opponent's discard pile for a hero and remove it from the game.

Be written:
Remove a hero in opponent's discard pile from the game.

The special ability that is happening is a removal from the game. The "search" in the ability isn't really a search. It should have been written as a reveal, in my opinion. Perhaps with a colon showing what to do with the revealed cards. Perhaps like this:

Reveal opponent's discard pile: remove a hero from the game.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:43:58 PM »

That is possibly the problem. The issue with the proffered re-wording is what happens with cards like Nazareth? Would a protect deck from search stop a "Remove a card in opponent's draw pile from the game?"

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:55:19 PM »

Problem is, Bryon, that's not how it was written. What you should be saying is:

This card:
Search opponent's discard pile for a hero and remove it from the game.

Should have been written like this:
Remove a hero in opponent's discard pile from the game.

Problem is, it wasn't. The way I see it, if a card were protecting cards in Discard Pile from removal from the game, a card worded that way would allow you to put it in your hand. Search is an ability as well as a function, and trying to make rules about when it's not actually an ability is unnecessarily complicated. No more "this means X, unless Y, A, B, or C, then it means Z" type rules please.

SirNobody · « **Reply #13 on:** April 27, 2011, 09:57:27 PM »

Hey,

Bryon, the "problem" is the way we use 'for' and 'and' in Search abilities. (Namely for)

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 27, 2011, 06:18:56 PM

What I am saying is that "Search deck for a card and add it to battle" is really:

1. Search deck for a card.
2. Add it to battle.

"Search deck for a card and add it to battle" is really:

1. Search deck
2. for a card and add it to battle.

It would be more intuitive wording (given the way we word most abilities) if we worded the ability "Search deck and add a card in it to battle."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2011, 10:15:23 PM »

Honestly, I have no idea where you come up with some of the things you say. It's like being counseled by Yogi Berra.

You'll have to dumb your post down for me to understand what you are talking about. I've never heard the ability "For a card and add it to battle" before.

SirNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** April 27, 2011, 10:21:57 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 27, 2011, 10:15:23 PM

Honestly, I have no idea where you come up with some of the things you say. It's like being counseled by Yogi Berra.

You'll have to dumb your post down for me to understand what you are talking about. I've never heard the ability "For a card and add it to battle" before.

The emphasis is on the first of the two abilities. "Search deck" The point being that the target of the search is the deck, not the card within the deck that is searched for. And in fact the card that you are searching for has no relevance to the search ability at all (other than that it exists). The search ability targets the deck and lets you search it, that's it.

"For a card and add it to battle" is simply all of the other words in the ability. "Add it to battle" is the ability while "for a card" explains what the "it" is.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2011, 12:14:49 PM »

Yeah, nty. Less confusing and convoluted>more confusing and convoluted.

Cactus Game Design Message Boards

News:

Author Topic: Searching and Where Cards End Up (Read 2077 times)

Gabe

Searching and Where Cards End Up

Alex_Olijar

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Warrior_Monk

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Gabe

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

SirNobody

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Minister Polarius

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

YourMathTeacher

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Gabe

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

browarod

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

YourMathTeacher

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Bryon

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

EmJayBee83

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Minister Polarius

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

SirNobody

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

YourMathTeacher

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

SirNobody

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up

Minister Polarius

Re: Searching and Where Cards End Up