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I am only pointing out that if preventing cheating and trying to remove the temptation to cheat is of major concern to someone, then they have a much bigger kettle of fish to fry than the rule that searched cards must be revealed.

But that is still not a valid argument against this particular rule. The analogy that I would use is this:

When I go to Wal-Mart, the expensive electronics devices are either chained to the wall or behind a locked glass case. Your argument is that because people could still steal toys a few aisles down, then there's only two choices:

1.) Remove all the security features in electronics.
2.) Add security devices to every product in the store.

I don't think it is all that difficult to just keep the electronics secured and not choose one of the above options (which sound silly to me).

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Out of curiosity, STAMP and MJB, do you guys cut your opponent's deck before each game? I realize that the rulebook says so, but the rulebook is outdated, and such a rule does not foster trust and the Honor System.

I don't like rules that require trust. If I go to a major tournament I will shuffle every one of my opponets decks and also cut them. I will ask that all specific searches are revealed.

I don't like rules that require trust.

Ahh, we now come closer to the root of this discussion.  Please elaborate.

Quote from: Red on January 20, 2012, 05:10:25 PM

I don't like rules that require trust.

Ahh, we now come closer to the root of this discussion.  Please elaborate.

I believe that man is sinful and thus I would rather create mechanism that help prevent him from sinning than simply trust him to be good because that's what he should do.

You're pro-temptation?

My eyes hurt from rolling so much.

You're pro-temptation?

Obviously!  In fact, just as obvious that Jesus was a law-breaker by healing on the Sabbath!   

I would assume that STAMP is also against Parental Controls, or any other means by which a parent would try to prevent their child from being tempted.

In fact, why even have the Ten Commandments? God could just let us go and then forgive us later.

I think Paul said it best: "Should we continue in sin so that our grace will increase? May it never be!"

 

How do you go from "system of rules that fosters forgiveness" to "why even have the Ten Commandments"??


Example from System of rules that fosters forgiveness: thou shalt not steal.

Example from System that prefers to protect you from your temptation and sin: thou shalt not steal; thou shalt be monitored with law enforcement and sound and video equipment; thou shalt tag all merchandise with tracking devices; thou shalt be profiled due to your age, race, gender, etc.


Wait.  You guys are just baiting me, right?  That's a good one!  Ok, you got me. 

Wait.  You guys are just baiting me, right?  That's a good one!  Ok, you got me. 

Frankly I'm disappointed that an avid fisherman would be so easily baited. 

In general if you search for any card (no limits) you usually don't have to show it (at least in MtG and Yu-gi-oh! and that is what the rules in Redemption have always been) but if it's a limited search you have to show the card in its entirety.

STAMP, Jesus talked about not just forgiving our neighbor seven times, but seven times seventy, but I don't think that meant that we should blindly trust our neighbor who's wronged us either. There's a difference between grace and forgiveness and simply being unwise. I skimmed this thread a couple times, and as far as I can tell, nobody is proposing we add new rules to reduce the amount of trust required; however, some rules reducing the amount of trust needed are most certainly required, especially because of how easy it is to cheat.

For several years during my youth, I had a very large dishonest streak; I was a compulsive liar and yes, I did cheat at games. When I began playing Redemption, especially more seriously in the last two years, I made a serious pact with myself and God that I would not let such tendencies come through when playing Redemption, and I have kept that. Now, I tell that story to justify what I'm saying now, which is that it is incredibly easy to cheat in this game, except against all but the most cynical and least trusting players. It would be nothing to take off an extra card during any draws that are more than one card. As others mentioned, hiding a LS in the artifact pile isn't the hardest thing in the world.

The point I'm making is that Redemption already has a huge amount of trust required to play the game without coming off as a jerk. I could insist my opponent draw each card individually to prove they aren't drawing more than they're supposed to, and I could insist to look at my opponent's deck after each game before he shuffles to make sure he has the correct amount of Lost Souls in the deck. That makes me come off as a jerk however, and let's be honest: if I don't do that (at least the last one) in games where there was a serious Lost Soul drought all game, I might be simply being a fool for double-checking. Having some rules, even minor ones like the search rule, enforce fair play more than trust and love and rainbows do. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to make such provisions, however, as it stands, we do.