Author Topic: Search deck for card, must show it? (Read 7052 times)

LordZardeck · « **on:** January 17, 2012, 09:32:40 PM »

Attending angel allows me to search my deck for a card and place it in my hand. Am I REQUIRED to show it to my opponent? the REG doesn't mention it

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:35:31 PM »

Unless the ability says you may grab any card, I believe you are required to show what card you pulled, to prove it's what the ability said.

Red Wing · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:40:14 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 17, 2012, 09:35:31 PM

Unless the ability says you may grab any card, I believe you are required to show what card you pulled, to prove it's what the ability said.

I agree.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:41:34 PM »

Here's the thing, I'm not sure if this is game rule or just expected courtesy. I'm about 80% sure the former.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:43:19 PM »

I'm 100% Certain that it's a game rule. If its not written down somewhere (Which I find hard to believe, I'm sure some obscure section of the REG lists it) Then we'll right it down. I'll add this to the FAQ's right now.

Additionally, if you cannot satisfy the requirements for a discard from hand ability you must reveal the fact that you cannot do so.

Red Wing · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:44:47 PM »

Here it is in the REG:

Quote

Instant Abilities > Search

Special Conditions

If an ability that is paired with a search ability targets a specific type of card, reveal the targeted card before carrying out the paired ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2012, 05:48:48 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on January 17, 2012, 09:32:40 PM

Attending angel allows me to search my deck for a card and place it in my hand. Am I REQUIRED to show it to my opponent? the REG doesn't mention it

You are required to show that it is a good enhancement. If you are concerned about giving away strategies, you could cover up everything on the card with your hand except the bible icon.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 17, 2012, 09:41:34 PM

Here's the thing, I'm not sure if this is game rule or just expected courtesy.

As much as we would like to view this as a courtesy, people simply can not be trusted. I had an opponent play Ethiopian Treasurer, then search their deck for the good enhancement with no SA. They pulled a card out of their deck and placed it in their hand. I told them that game rule required that they reveal the card to verify it was the targeted card. They immediately put the card back into their deck and continued searching. After going through their whole deck, they said that they did not have an enhancement with no SA.

I still wonder what card they put into their hand the first time .....

SomeKittens · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2012, 06:57:44 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 18, 2012, 05:48:48 PM

Quote from: LordZardeck on January 17, 2012, 09:32:40 PM
Attending angel allows me to search my deck for a card and place it in my hand. Am I REQUIRED to show it to my opponent? the REG doesn't mention it

You are required to show that it is a good enhancement. If you are concerned about giving away strategies, you could cover up everything on the card with your hand except the bible icon.

I thought it had to be a universal reveal (i.e. the entire card)

Hanno102 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2012, 06:59:02 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on January 17, 2012, 09:44:47 PM

Here it is in the REG:

Quote
Instant Abilities > Search

Special Conditions

If an ability that is paired with a search ability targets a specific type of card, reveal the targeted card before carrying out the paired ability.

That definition should be broadened to include look at and take into hand abilities - e.g. Divination.
(That or we've been playing it wrong all along, which I highly doubt).

And yes, it is a universal reveal.

STAMP · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:08:23 PM »

You know, since rule simplification is preferred where applicable, this is an opportunity. I think the "honor system" should be used for all types of searches, rather than requiring complex specific details as to when a player must show a card to an opponent.

If all attempts to block temptations for cheating cannot be addressed, then I believe it's an exercise in futility to create excess rules to do so. Let's keep things simple and use it as an opportunity for all players to strengthen their character by not succumbing to temptations to cheat.

Hanno102 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:26:20 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on January 18, 2012, 07:08:23 PM

You know, since rule simplification is preferred where applicable, this is an opportunity. I think the "honor system" should be used for all types of searches, rather than requiring complex specific details as to when a player must show a card to an opponent.

If all attempts to block temptations for cheating cannot be addressed, then I believe it's an exercise in futility to create excess rules to do so. Let's keep things simple and use it as an opportunity for all players to strengthen their character by not succumbing to temptations to cheat.

While I agree entirely with the sentiment, we need these rules for exactly the same reason we check decks: to prevent mistakes and avoid potential issues arising due to them.

STAMP · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2012, 07:34:55 PM »

Quote from: Hanno102 on January 18, 2012, 07:26:20 PM

While I agree entirely with the sentiment, we need these rules for exactly the same reason we check decks: to prevent mistakes and avoid potential issues arising due to them.

I acknowledge your good point. There are the intentional (cheating) and unintentional (mistakes) consequences. But I would add that there is a huge disparity between mistakes made from searches versus mistakes made due to the complexity of the rules.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2012, 08:33:26 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on January 18, 2012, 07:08:23 PM

Let's keep things simple and use it as an opportunity for all players to strengthen their character by not succumbing to temptations to cheat.

Unfortunately the ones who have good character will eventually lose to the others, which creates awkward situations at major tournaments. Cheaters always win.... until they're caught.

STAMP · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2012, 10:54:43 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 18, 2012, 08:33:26 PM

Quote from: STAMP on January 18, 2012, 07:08:23 PM
Let's keep things simple and use it as an opportunity for all players to strengthen their character by not succumbing to temptations to cheat.

Unfortunately the ones who have good character will eventually lose to the others, which creates awkward situations at major tournaments. Cheaters always win.... until they're caught.

You're probably right...but I'm in that small group of people that focus on "it's how you play the game."

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2012, 11:33:35 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 18, 2012, 08:33:26 PM

Quote from: STAMP on January 18, 2012, 07:08:23 PM
Let's keep things simple and use it as an opportunity for all players to strengthen their character by not succumbing to temptations to cheat.

Unfortunately the ones who have good character will eventually lose to the others, which creates awkward situations at major tournaments. Cheaters always win.... until they're caught.

While I understand YMT's concerns I think they are overblown, and I would tend to side with STAMP on this one.*

Let's face it... If I really wanted to cheat there is a super simple way to do so that would would be undetectable under the current rules and would result in virtually guaranteed wins. Whenever I draw a lost soul, I will simply keep it in my hand or turn it face down and place it in my artifact pile.** As long as my deck is big enough so I don't deck out I win every time and you'll never know that you was robbed.***

Requiring people to show cards they have searched for is minor nibbling around the edges of any potential cheating problem given the "strategy" I outlined above. So do we start requiring people to show every card they draw so we know they are not lost souls?

*Not that I think a rule change is necessary, but if we were starting from scratch...

**Yes, I know to be truly undetectable I would have to protect my deck, hand and/or artifact pile from my opponent.

***Fortunately, my win/loss ratio proves that I am not employing this strategy on any consistent basis.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2012, 12:36:09 AM »

You know, there are many cards that say find a card, show it to your opponent, and add it to your hand. I think making this a standard rule across all search abilities would not be a problem and would make this no longer a "i dont trust you" issue.

Gabe · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2012, 12:38:58 AM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on January 19, 2012, 12:36:09 AM

You know, there are many cards that say find a card, show it to your opponent, and add it to your hand. I think making this a standard rule across all search abilities would not be a problem and would make this no longer a "i dont trust you" issue.

It is a standard rule across all search abilities. There are two exceptions, both of which allow you to search for any card, no matter the type so a reveal isn't necessary. They are False Peace (gray EE) and Search (green GE).

STAMP · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2012, 11:20:08 AM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on January 19, 2012, 12:36:09 AM

You know, there are many cards that say find a card, show it to your opponent, and add it to your hand. I think making this a standard rule across all search abilities would not be a problem and would make this no longer a "i dont trust you" issue.

So we have cards that say search and show, so we search and show.
We have cards that say search, but we search and show except for a couple of cards.

I'm not necessarily lobbying for a rule change here, but simplicity would seem best:

Card says search and show, you search and show.
Card says search, you search.

We have the some of the brightest minds in the world as our Elders, but sometimes I worry that there is too much over-thinking of the plumbing. It is admirable that the ruling is an honest attempt to make sure the game is more fair, but as MJB exhibits, cheating can still be accomplished. Amateur magicians could even give you a few tips on how to doctor a deck so as to draw the cards you want.

As I said before, I'm just tossing in my 2 cents because there has been recent success with rule simplification.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2012, 11:29:07 AM »

Quote from: STAMP on January 19, 2012, 11:20:08 AM

So we have cards that say search and show, so we search and show.
We have cards that say search, but we search and show except for a couple of cards.

So we have cards that say capture and treat as a lost soul
We have cards that say capture, but we treat as a lost soul anyway.

Old wording is old. The game changes, and so do special abilities. In order to keep the game fair, we require a reveal if the search looks for a certain type of card.

STAMP · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2012, 11:48:08 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 19, 2012, 11:29:07 AM

Quote from: STAMP on January 19, 2012, 11:20:08 AM
So we have cards that say search and show, so we search and show.
We have cards that say search, but we search and show except for a couple of cards.
So we have cards that say capture and treat as a lost soul
We have cards that say capture, but we treat as a lost soul anyway.

Old wording is old. The game changes, and so do special abilities. In order to keep the game fair, we require a reveal if the search looks for a certain type of card.

I even extend grace to implied references of my age.

Your analogy is lacking. For full credit please show all work.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2012, 11:49:39 AM »

Do you want people to use Consider the Lillies to get Son of God?

TimMierz · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2012, 11:49:59 AM »

Quote from: STAMP on January 19, 2012, 11:20:08 AM

So we have cards that say search and show, so we search and show.
We have cards that say search, but we search and show except for a couple of cards.

Okay, I've been poring through the REG card list and can't find a single card that say search and show/reveal. They all just have "search" printed. The reveal is just an inherent part of searching to ensure it's a legal move.

And while yes, people can still cheat, I know I personally make enough honest mistakes in playing that I could forget that Chamber of Angels is an NT Fortress when I was supposed to search for an OT one, or mistakenly use Stone Pillar at Bethel to search for the NT Angel of the Lord, or what have you.

I don't see how this is something that needs to be simplified. It's fine as is. (So is the rule of "if someone has to discard a type of card from hand but can't, they need to reveal their hand to prove it".)

STAMP · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2012, 12:08:03 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on January 19, 2012, 11:49:59 AM

Quote from: STAMP on January 19, 2012, 11:20:08 AM
So we have cards that say search and show, so we search and show.
We have cards that say search, but we search and show except for a couple of cards.

Okay, I've been poring through the REG card list and can't find a single card that say search and show/reveal. They all just have "search" printed. The reveal is just an inherent part of searching to ensure it's a legal move.

And while yes, people can still cheat, I know I personally make enough honest mistakes in playing that I could forget that Chamber of Angels is an NT Fortress when I was supposed to search for an OT one, or mistakenly use Stone Pillar at Bethel to search for the NT Angel of the Lord, or what have you.

I don't see how this is something that needs to be simplified. It's fine as is. (So is the rule of "if someone has to discard a type of card from hand but can't, they need to reveal their hand to prove it".)

I don't presume to have every card memorized, especially the newer cards. I made an incorrect assumption based on LordZardeck's post. If there is indeed no card that requires you to search and show, then I would still propose rule simplification...only this time remove the exceptions for Search and False Peace.

You search. You show. Every time.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2012, 12:59:22 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on January 19, 2012, 12:08:03 PM

Quote from: TimMierz on January 19, 2012, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: STAMP on January 19, 2012, 11:20:08 AM
So we have cards that say search and show, so we search and show.
We have cards that say search, but we search and show except for a couple of cards.

Okay, I've been poring through the REG card list and can't find a single card that say search and show/reveal. They all just have "search" printed. The reveal is just an inherent part of searching to ensure it's a legal move.

And while yes, people can still cheat, I know I personally make enough honest mistakes in playing that I could forget that Chamber of Angels is an NT Fortress when I was supposed to search for an OT one, or mistakenly use Stone Pillar at Bethel to search for the NT Angel of the Lord, or what have you.

I don't see how this is something that needs to be simplified. It's fine as is. (So is the rule of "if someone has to discard a type of card from hand but can't, they need to reveal their hand to prove it".)

I don't presume to have every card memorized, especially the newer cards. I made an incorrect assumption based on LordZardeck's post. If there is indeed no card that requires you to search and show, then I would still propose rule simplification...only this time remove the exceptions for Search and False Peace.

You search. You show. Every time.

Sorry, I thought some cards did require you to show. Nevertheless, this is what I meant. Show everytime, no exceptions, or don't ever show. KISS.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2012, 01:01:16 PM »

The flaw I see in MJB's example of potential cheating is that if a player is that it would be very easy to catch them. If people don't seem to be drawing Lost Souls, any ability that allows me to search my opponent's deck will clue me in that there's a few souls short. If I ever lose a tournament game because of apparent soul drought, I will usually check my opponent's deck to see if there were enough included; this happened to me once during Sealed deck when my opponent had left three of her LS's with her previous opponent, fortunately we had time to play again.

In the case of searching, there is no way to tell if your opponent was fortunate and really did draw all of their dominants right away, or if they got SoG/NJ right away because of Zaccheus and Consider the Lilies.

One of the other reasons the rule helps has been mentioned, which is honest mistakes. I can't tell you how many times people have used CtL to fetch Blessings, Words or First Fruits without realizing that none of those are NT. I remind them that CtL specifies NT, to which they often say they never realized that wasn't legal. If they hadn't had to show me those times, then they would have cheated without even knowing it. It's a bad feeling to realize that you may have won a game because of an honest mistake; at Nationals I didn't realize until after the game that I had kept using my Goliath to return my opponent's only two heroes for a few turns, one of which was Abishai (a giant-slayer). I am not certain that I would have lost the game as a result, but it definitely feels better to know you played the cards correctly.

I don't think the rule is very complicated, and I think there are plenty of legitimate reasons it should remain the way it is, although I certainly see the other side of the coin as well.

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Author Topic: Search deck for card, must show it? (Read 7052 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

TheHobbit13